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Even for $25-30k, it's not that bad of a deal. 355 performance but the simplicity and looks of a 308... that's a pretty good combination.
 
Discussion starter · #24 · (Edited)
Question for any physics people in the audience as my Newtonian physics as not quite what I would like it to be!

What effect will increased piston speed have on intake port velocity? By changing the stroke of this engine +8mm I am raising the piston speed yet increasing the rod angle placing a bit more load on the piston, which I am ok with. Too much port velocity can be a bad thing while too little (which I am sort of fearful of with these 44mm intakes yet 40dcnf Webers) can cause issues as well. I am thinking the stroke increase will level out what port velocity I have lost in opening the ports, but I can't be sure.


I should explain my asking a little bit. I had my 5-8 head intakes measured for flow today and I think the numbers reported to me came out ok. .050-.100 lift is reported to have just a 3% gain yet it moves up quickly to 8-9% gains at anything over .200" with .400 lift yielding a 14% gain or 167cfm. In a stock intake, .400 lift yields 147cfm so this is a good gain to me. The absolute best thing for this intake were the nailhead style valves with back cuts I am told. I didn't really have huge cash to invest in porting these things how I wanted so all I did was change the seats to a larger ID and OD, larger nailhead intake valves, and then blend the bowl into the new seat ID and blend to the throat. It was actually really easy if you take your time and make for darn sure not to cut anything too deep. The only problem is I know I lost some velocity by going to a larger seat ID and valve pinch point OD. Anyway, estimated BHP per cylinder came out at 42.8 which is 342.4bhp in this motor which is right where I want to be. Nick's heads came out to 44.9 so as long as I am within 10% of those heads I am happy. The problem is now that I know the heads can do the job I know the puny Webers are going to be struggling........ I just can't cough up the $$$$ to do the injection stuff just yet.....I will though! Give me time and I will get it on eventually. I just want to get the thing up and running again for now.
 
Well there just seems to be a spare set of 355 TB's laying around ! as of about 20minutes ago ??
John just bid and won a full set including injectors, fuel rails, plenums and the lot . Which is for my project and I already have a set of just the TB's here in South Africa. I'll have a look in the morning as to how hard it would be to fit them to the carb manifolds ?
Problem is you still need an ECU ? which is where the money is ? Although how is Mark coming on with his ? Would be a great test bed ?
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Dave you are sneaky. Yes, the ECU is a pricey part of this, but certainly not the only part. I was sort of eyeballing the manifolds and wondering the same thing. Matching the ports and getting the 355 manifolds to mount vertically would be the tricky bit. I suppose a small manifold runner could be fabricated from the inlet port to provide the required 45 degree turn so the 355 TB's could fit upright. Not easy, but very cool.
 

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Photo shows 360 crank (above) and 308 crank (below). Pics courtesy of Dave. You can see the bore spacing is the same, but the 360 has larger oil passages and is lighter.
Wow, the 308 is pretty overweight in comparison. How much do 360 cranks run for on the used market? $1k?

It'll certainly be interesting watching this come together.
 
What effect will increased piston speed have on intake port velocity?.
A little but not much. The much bigger effect is the increased displacement.

The higher flow will help more than the reduced velocity hurts, so that's is a gain.

Those numbers are at 28" water? Stock head are right around 92 at 10" on the 2 flow benches I've tested on which is about 158 at 28" so the 147 number confuses me a bit..,..but they are a gain either way so that's good. 40mm webers should be good to about the 167 you have so that might be ok.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Wow, the 308 is pretty overweight in comparison. How much do 360 cranks run for on the used market? $1k?

It'll certainly be interesting watching this come together.

308 crank = 42lbs 360 crank = 32lbs (I think)

360 cranks are a bit more than that. GT car parts has them for less than $2k now and I found another place who have them for about the same. Getting a tiny bit more common.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
A little but not much. The much bigger effect is the increased displacement.

The higher flow will help more than the reduced velocity hurts, so that's is a gain.

Those numbers are at 28" water? Stock head are right around 92 at 10" on the 2 flow benches I've tested on which is about 158 at 28" so the 147 number confuses me a bit..,..but they are a gain either way so that's good. 40mm webers should be good to about the 167 you have so that might be ok.
Yes, @ 28". The stock numbers I have seen at 28" are 147 @ .400 which Steve provided for me on a sheet for to compare. I remember the stock intake showed it produced steady gains through .300 lift and then minute gains thereafter. I have it on my work computer and will post it tomorrow if you like. I *think* that is bone stock with stock valve seat angles etc. Nick's head Steve did for comparison is 168cfm @ .400 but with some nice gradual gains in there IIRC.

What's crazy are little BMW 2002 heads can flow like crazy! I've been viewing sheets on BMW websites. Neat stuff
 
308 crank = 42lbs 360 crank = 32lbs (I think)

360 cranks are a bit more than that. GT car parts has them for less than $2k now and I found another place who have them for about the same. Getting a tiny bit more common.
Hmmm... interesting. One could increase the displacement of a stock (bore) engine by roughly 8.5% and reduce the rotational mass by 10 lbs... Not a bad deal.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Dave, I am no pro nor am I a fabricator but I bet the only option is making a new fancy manifold between the port and throttle body.
 
From Mark's thread, it seems like the goal is to get a smooth taper from the TB to the valve... looks like a tough job as is. Maybe a cross flow manifold and mount the TBs horizontally over the valve covers? Another thought is to just make a 2" or so spacer and taper from the TB down to the port. Hood clearance might be an issue though.
 
The fabrication part doesn't worry me it's the taper as Bret mensioned . If someone can come up with a solution , I'll try and make it ?
What's the rpm target for the engine? The 355 tb runner length is probably optimized for around 8000rpm, so adding 2" for an adapter would bring the rpm they'd be tuned at down some I'd think. It could work if you're looking at making a 7000rpm engine. There is software out there to determine ideal runner length, you'd have to see how close you can get the runner length to tune to your target rpm. If you have an extra set of just the TB's, you could build an adapter for the short term to run stock TB's and then modify the other set to not need the adapter and tune the length properly for your engine. If I were set on using the tb's, that might be my plan...Cool project.
 
What's the rpm target for the engine? The 355 tb runner length is probably optimized for around 8000rpm, so adding 2" for an adapter would bring the rpm they'd be tuned at down some I'd think. It could work if you're looking at making a 7000rpm engine. There is software out there to determine ideal runner length, you'd have to see how close you can get the runner length to tune to your target rpm. If you have an extra set of just the TB's, you could build an adapter for the short term to run stock TB's and then modify the other set to not need the adapter and tune the length properly for your engine. If I were set on using the tb's, that might be my plan...Cool project.
How do they measure this length ? Valve seat to butterfly ?? Valve seat to end of trumpet ?
The TB butterfly is at the top end of the Tb were as on the carbs it's much closer to the manifold face ?
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
I believe optimal intake runner length for my flow was determined to be a bit over 19 inches. Don't ask me how the computer came up with that because I have zero idea
 
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