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Discussion Starter #1
It looks as if the denials and smug scoffing are about to be taken down in a big way. The Dino looks like it is really going to happen:

recent story here

As well, the new Dino will not be any more affordable than what a new 360 or 430 was when new, so the argument for "cheapening" of the hallowed Ferrari marque is no longer a valid argument.

As well, the original Dino was actually an engine platform, was a V8, and was then later adapted for road car use. The reintroduced Dino will more than likely feature a V8, too. So this is actually a Dino trait, historically speaking.


So what are the continuing sentiments of hatred over the Dino all about? It's one of the most significant parts of the Ferrari history and legacy among most of said marque's moments.

Anyone?
 

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Rumours of the re-introduction of the 'Dino' have been circulating for some time. I don't think that the idea is loathesome, more that it is pointless. It seems more of an excercise in brand engineering for the benefit of people who don't even know what a Dino looks like, let alone what it drives like. Not my intention to insult peoples intelligence, but it is true. A perfect example of this was Mercedes' re-introduction of the Maybach brand. Most people were like May...who? Oh its a big Limo!

For me personally the 8 cyl Ferrari's are the blood line of the Dino, starting with the 308. The fact is that the 8's have grown so much physically and in terms of power so that the lineage is not really discernable anymore.

From a business perspective I can understand that there is a section of the market below the 430 where Ferrari would perhaps like to be present, but I think that would harm the image of the brand. Personally I would leave that segment to Maserati.

Part of the charm of the brand is the aura of exclusivity - one aspires to own a Ferrari. That is partly why the residuals of the older vehicles tend to remain high. If you could own a Ferrari 'Dino' in the same way you would own a Boxster or an SLK or Z4 than that aura would disappear and so would the desire to a greater degree.

I think it was Luca (di Montezemolo, not the guy who owns Luca's ice cream parlour in Morningside, Edinburgh) who said in a recent interview that Ferrari views it pre-owned vehicles as its entry models. I think there is a lot to be said for that.

Just my $0.02
 

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I agree with everything T1f says.
The most recent rumour was that the new entry level Ferrari was going to be a 2+2 front engined V8, sub €100K. Not quite Boxster money, but definitely 997 money.
With a growing family I might be tempted by a 4 seater Ferrari, but my view is that Fiat would be better sticking a Maserati, Lancia or Alfa badge on it.
The Dino was a classic and is a name that stirs emotion, but the name belongs in history.
 

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I agree with Archie. Very Well said. If they want to re-introduce something along the lines of a Dino, stick a Maser or Alfa badge on it...let the Dino stay a classic part of history.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Rumours of the re-introduction of the 'Dino' have been circulating for some time. I don't think that the idea is loathesome, more that it is pointless. It seems more of an excercise in brand engineering for the benefit of people who don't even know what a Dino looks like, let alone what it drives like. Not my intention to insult peoples intelligence, but it is true. A perfect example of this was Mercedes' re-introduction of the Maybach brand. Most people were like May...who? Oh its a big Limo!
The original racing Testa Rossas of the 1950s do not resemble the road going versions of the 1980s; such cars seem more of an excercise in brand engineering, too. I'm wondering how a Dino, then, is any different in this regard. Ferrari has revived it's own names for years.

Part of the charm of the brand is the aura of exclusivity - one aspires to own a Ferrari. That is partly why the residuals of the older vehicles tend to remain high. If you could own a Ferrari 'Dino' in the same way you would own a Boxster or an SLK or Z4 than that aura would disappear and so would the desire to a greater degree.
For months, the reports have been, and are confirmed today, for the Dino to be priced between £82,000 and £90,000. That's about $160,000 -$180,000. This is virtually F430 money. Are you suggesting, too, that the F430 is a non-exclusive marketed Ferrari?
 

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Who thinks the 308, 328, 348, 355, 360, and 430 are not the species named Dino? Of course they are. The introduction of the V-8 was the dream and conclusion against the wishes of his father and later in testiment to both men. The 8's are still a curse to those who believe in the 12's. It took Enzo years to embrace them and some still won't let that go.

I, on the other hand, adore them

Long live the Dino's ( I mean 8's)
 

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I'm sure I recently read (think it was in Autoweek), that Ferrari will NOT be using the Dino name on the new entry-level Ferrari. I would think and hope that's the case.

Rick
 

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The original racing Testa Rossas of the 1950s do not resemble the road going versions of the 1980s; such cars seem more of an excercise in brand engineering, too. I'm wondering how a Dino, then, is any different in this regard. Ferrari has revived it's own names for years.
That is true, the 80's Testarossas did not resemble the original. However the brand lineage of the modern Flat 12 Testarossa could be traced back to the original 250 series. In the same way the F430 can be traced back to the Dino. Therefore if the next model in the '8' range was badged 'Dino' for example 'F430 Dinoficato' or F430D for short, than that fits within the point you are making, which is valid.

On a technical point my use of the term 'Brand Engineering' is incorrect. 'Brand Leverage' or 'Brand Extension' are perhaps more appropriate as I guess we are talking about more than a F430 with a new badge. We are talking about a new Ferrari model targeted at a different market segment

For months, the reports have been, and are confirmed today, for the Dino to be priced between £82,000 and £90,000. That's about $160,000 -$180,000. This is virtually F430 money. Are you suggesting, too, that the F430 is a non-exclusive marketed Ferrari?
Looking at what is available on the Ferrari UK website today, a newish F430 Berlinetta is around GBP£150,000. That makes the F430 exclusive to a point. Euro LHD models are usually a little less, but it is still a substantial amount, so that even when you factor in depreciation and attrition, used models are still exclusive.

However 2 points to consider.

1. The F430 is not as exclusive as any of the '8' models that preceded it as the production figures were much lower for those models.

Therefore in the used market even when you factor in a level of attrition the ratio of exclusivity (in terms purely of physical supply) between the F430 and its predecessors remains. The older models are still more exclusive. Factor in a demand element you see the level of availabilty begin to converge; the later models with the higher production figures begin to compete for demand with the pristine older models still available in the market within a more 'friendly' price bracket (e.g GBP£30,000 to £70,000) and so you have overlap, and exclusivity of the greater quantity is further eroded. The key factor in reducing the rate of this erosion is reducing the rate of depreciation, by controlling volumes and prices as well as your brand.

2. Now introduce an 'entry' level model for between GBP£82,000 - GBP£90,000. By definition an entry level model has to be more affordable, so to keep prices lower you leverage economies of scale i.e. you produce more (more than the number of F430's you already produce), share components etc.

What will that do to the residual values/rate of depreciation of your used models? and therefore to the level of exclusivity? and ultimately to your brand? which incidentally is built partly on exclusivity.

Ferrari would become to FIAT what Porsche is to VW. More profitable but commonplace.

Just my observations and ramblings - I made it up as I went along!:rolleyes: :)


.
 

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Who thinks the 308, 328, 348, 355, 360, and 430 are not the species named Dino? Of course they are. The introduction of the V-8 was the dream and conclusion against the wishes of his father and later in testiment to both men. The 8's are still a curse to those who believe in the 12's. It took Enzo years to embrace them and some still won't let that go.

I, on the other hand, adore them

Long live the Dino's ( I mean 8's)
I don't agree with this analysis. All Dino's ever produced were 6 cylinders, not 8. The only exception to this rule was the Dino 308GT4 which was rebadged as a Ferrari shortly after it was introduced.

It did not take Enzo that many years to embrace 4 cylinder (1954 - 1957) and 6 cylinder cars (1959 - 1973, although Dino Ferrari had input into Jano's design in 1955 and the year of his death, 1956) and so Enzo was not the singular 12-cylinder dude people make him out to be. Dino himself, according to my information, never did any serious design work on a V8 and certainly wasn't the cause of the introduction of 8 cylinders into Ferrari's lineage. If that was the case, the earlier Dino models would have featured 8 cylinder engines. Instead, it took 17 years after the death of Dino for a V8 to be introduced.

All this takes nothing away from the fact that I love Ferrari 8's and I like to think by the time Enzo died he did as well. But Dinos they are not (with 1 exception that confirms the rule, as mentioned).


Onno



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The Dino name is one that will always stir a debate, personally I think it should be consigned to history. As great a drivers car as the 308 GT4 is, it should not have been badged a Dino, as the car was never the successor to the 246.
The 308 GTB/S on the other hand is. OK it has an 8 rather than a 6 and for that reason it should not use the name, but leaving that aside, look at the design. Pinifarina clearly took the Dino's design and copied it for the 308, all they changed were the covered lights for pop up lights. Although the 308 is more angular and pointed than the curvier Dino, put the 2 side by side you can definitely see the evolution.
This was also carried through to the 328.
The evolution is less obvious with the 348/355, but it's back with the 360/430. A few weeks ago I looked at several 360's at a show, and thought to myself this looks like a lowered, widened and more modern Dino. Again, put a 246, 308, 328 & 360 together in a row and the evolution will be plain to see.
 

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I don't agree with this analysis. All Dino's ever produced were 6 cylinders, not 8. The only exception to this rule was the Dino 308GT4 which was rebadged as a Ferrari shortly after it was introduced.

It did not take Enzo that many years to embrace 4 cylinder (1954 - 1957) and 6 cylinder cars (1959 - 1973, although Dino Ferrari had input into Jano's design in 1955 and the year of his death, 1956) and so Enzo was not the singular 12-cylinder dude people make him out to be. Dino himself, according to my information, never did any serious design work on a V8 and certainly wasn't the cause of the introduction of 8 cylinders into Ferrari's lineage. If that was the case, the earlier Dino models would have featured 8 cylinder engines. Instead, it took 17 years after the death of Dino for a V8 to be introduced.

All this takes nothing away from the fact that I love Ferrari 8's and I like to think by the time Enzo died he did as well. But Dinos they are not (with 1 exception that confirms the rule, as mentioned).


Onno

That is a really good point Onno.

I was thinking about the 8's being an evolution of the Dino model line along the general lines of 'small' Ferraris V 'big' Ferraris if there is such a dichotomy. Sort of 206, 246, 308, 328. 348 etc and also in terms of the general design, the curves, the mid-mounted engine, the air ducts on the sides, that sort of thing and so I would view the transition from 6 to 8 cyls in the same way as the regular increases in CC, as a part of this evolution in design and performance, nothing too sophisticated in my reasoning.

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Onno
You are, as always, technically correct. However, I preffer to think of my 348 as the 1993 vintage of the Dino. Call me crazy, but I can't imagine Enzo allowing his son's namesake to be but a brief historical footnote limited to the 246 alone. The shape, agility, spirit, and genetics live on in the 8's.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I don't agree with this analysis. All Dino's ever produced were 6 cylinders, not 8. The only exception to this rule was the Dino 308GT4 which was rebadged as a Ferrari shortly after it was introduced.
You must mean complete cars and not engines. But even at that, is not accurate.

The Dino idea was initially a race car, as such based on the engine of that namesake. Dino came in both V6 and V8.

Moroever, the first ever V8 of Ferrari appears in the Dino:


* 1962 2645 cc - 268SP
* 1962 2459 cc - 248SP

with subsequent variants of this engine used up until the F360 --for over 40 years.

Enzo Ferrari himself has stated the premise of "a car body built around an engine" ethos as the Ferrari idea and philosophy, hence the coachbuilders as separate entities from Ferrari; the numerical designations of Ferrari's cars based on engine displacements.

Technically, then, the 268SP, 248SP, 308GT4, 308GTB/S, Mondial8, 208GT4/B/S, 208Turbo, 288GTO, MondialQV, 328, F40, MondialT, 348, F355, F360 --are all Dinos.

In this manner, the Dino engine and name is perhaps among one of the most important aspects of Ferrari.

Dino has written much of Ferrari's legacy from 1962 to nearly the present day, creating the history, residing in the most talked about Ferraris.


So I don't understand the idea of the reintroduction of the actual Dino name onto a Ferrari as so hated. Dino made Ferrari what it is today.
 

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With the 430 beeing more like the TR in terms of size than the Dino, i see a lighter, more agile car in the future for Ferrari.
 

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Here's one. Build a new 328 that looks the same but with updated tech.
Just kidding, but a thought...
 

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It seems more of an excercise in brand engineering for the benefit of people who don't even know what a Dino looks like, let alone what it drives like. Not my intention to insult peoples intelligence, but it is true. A perfect example of this was Mercedes' re-introduction of the Maybach brand. Most people were like May...who? Oh its a big Limo!

For me personally the 8 cyl Ferrari's are the blood line of the Dino, starting with the 308. The fact is that the 8's have grown so much physically and in terms of power so that the lineage is not really discernable anymore.
Very well put, and completely agree.
 

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As the president of Ferrari Luca di Montezemolo said 'used ferrari's are our entry level cars'. As he also said entry level means the absence of the newest most advanced technology.

I cant agree with him more. If we look at car brands like the Packard, yeah, sure, the company made its sales quota with the packard 21(entry level Packard) but that was only a short term gain. In the long run the brand image changed to a lower level car manufacturer, eventually leading them to bankrupcy. Why doesnt BMW have a mini sized BMW? Instead they went to Mini. Its this simple, cheaper car means lower valued reputation.

Here is a link to Luca di Montezemolo's interview with motor trend:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0709_luca_di_montezemolo
 
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