[murat]

the F1 pump activates kind of normal, like every 120 seconds with when engine off, ignition on, but goes crazy when engine is running, coming on every 20 seconds or so.
Any ideas?
I disconnected the e-diff, but it didn't make a difference. everything is bled properly and no apparent leaks.

 

[theflash32]

Look at leakage rate on launch
..if normal leakage (on) rate less than 60 then accumulator failed

Also how long does pump stay on ..how many seconds

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[StefVan]

When you say "disconnected the E-DIFF", what did you disconnect exactly? To really eliminate the E-DIFF you have to disconnect both hoses from the quick couplings. A lot F430s start to suffer from internal differential leaks. If after disconnecting the E-DIFF hoses you still have the same pressure drops, then you know for sure that the problem is at the F1 side. Pump cycling every 120secs with engine off is not normal. With engine off, the pressure should hold a very long time, I mean hours.

 

[murat]

the leakages were 144/150 cc/min, I changed the clutch solenoid. first one started to go down (it doesn't go down immediately because TCU averages it over time).
Valve on leak didn't go down. Where would that leak be? I don't have any external leaks?
I disconnected both quick couplings for the E-diff to isolate the problem. it didn't help.
I am having difficulty understanding how idle would cause such rapid drops in pressure?

 

[theflash32]

What i am looking for is some timing parameters so i can help diag the issue

Would like to know how long the F1 pump stays on and how long does it remain off ..duration and cycle times

I would like you to take note if those two items for the following

Door opening (new)

Key on but with engine off -dash lights on

Engine running in neutral

Then shut car off but put key into on position again

Then how many shifts do you get before you get pump to cycle ..

Shift from 1 to n to 1 and let me know how many shifts before pump turns on ..also note the same as above duration

Do the same shifting with engine running..

Tell me all those timing and hopefully we can get to one or two possible items to look into

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[murat]

Door opening (new): motor runs for a six to seven seconds. this is consistent all the time, it may take less sometimes but not more.

Key on but with engine off -dash lights on: Motor runs for one second, cycles every two and a half minutes or so. (at 65F) it takes about a second to get to full pressure. this is consistent all the time.

Engine running in neutral : Motor cycles every 80 seconds or so today at 65F. it takes about a second to get to full pressure. this is not always consistent. Yesterday, the pump was cycling every 10 seconds, warm??

Then shut car off but put key into on position again: Motor cycles every two and a half minutes or a bit more (160 to 175 seconds). it takes about a second or less to get to full pressure.

Then how many shifts do you get before you get pump to cycle ..: Every shift causes massive pressure drop, to 30 bars or so, causes pump to cycle each and every time. It takes about a second or less for the system to get to full pressure.

Shift from 1 to n to 1 and let me know how many shifts before pump turns on ..also note the same as above duration .. Every shift causes massive pressure drop, to 30 bars or so, causes pump to cycle each and every time. It takes about a second or less for the system to get to full pressure.

Do the same shifting with engine running.. Every shift causes massive pressure drop, to 30 bars or so, causes pump to cycle each and every time. It takes about a second or less for the system to get to full pressure.

thank you so much for your help, I am puzzled why idling would cause additional pressure drop. I attached some screenshots of system pressure.

 

[murat]

I also get "P1773 clutch beyond PIS" code and frequent random drops to N when shifting, with "P1770 Gear engagements with wrong shifts".
no sign of clutch slip.
tried different PIS settings, no change

 

[theflash32]

Everything you described in timing is pointing to a ( 99 percent sure ) bad accumulator as i mentioned in post 2

What i want to look into is the clutch life left as well

The other error you mentioned is normally when wear is around 70 percent

Get the clutch new position and calculated position ..minus the two and divide by 5.6
.that will give you percent used ..if more than 70 percent..then it is mostly likely the reason for the beyond pis error

Two different issues .. one thing i can't know for sure is if the pressure issue caused by bad accumulator is causing the other error ..but wear reading will confirm this

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[StefVan]

Does the quantity of total available hydraulic fluid decreases in the reservoir? If not, you definitely would have an internal leak at the actuator allowing the fluid to flow back instantly depressurized as soon as the actuator is operated (failing teflon seals). It can also be a leaking solenoid valve at the Power Unit blocked open causing a big instant drop. EV #1/#3/#5 are all 3 used for N and 1st gear engagements.

 

[theflash32]

Does the quantity of total available hydraulic fluid decreases in the reservoir? If not, you definitely would have an internal leak at the actuator allowing the fluid to flow back instantly depressurized as soon as the actuator is operated (failing teflon seals). It can also be a leaking solenoid valve at the Power Unit blocked open causing a big instant drop. EV #1/#3/#5 are all 3 used for N and 1st gear engagements.

Usually if cycle times and run times are good with engine off but not good with engine running ..that points to solenoid ..also he changed it already iirc

All that being said . Never a perfect science

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[murat]

clutch wear shows 12.2% with the scanner, the position measurements come out to (21.157-18.708)/5.6 = 44%
I got only 23k miles but I have seen clutches go bad with even less than that...

 

[murat]

Does the quantity of total available hydraulic fluid decreases in the reservoir? If not, you definitely would have an internal leak at the actuator allowing the fluid to flow back instantly depressurized as soon as the actuator is operated (failing teflon seals). It can also be a leaking solenoid valve at the Power Unit blocked open causing a big instant drop. EV #1/#3/#5 are all 3 used for N and 1st gear engagements.

the fluid level moves as expected, higher when left overnight, drops when pump pressurizes.
shifts operate as expected at rest, with scanner.
shifts often get missed when driving, dropping to N, both during upshifts and downshifts.
dropped shifts used to be rare, like once a day, now like every second time.
Thanks!

 

[murat]

Usually if cycle times and run times are good with engine off but not good with engine running ..that points to solenoid ..also he changed it already iirc

All that being said . Never a perfect science

I just installed a brand new EVF, but I don't know hot to diagnose the rest of the solenoids. they do seem to operate fine and perform all the shifts at rest?

 

[theflash32]

I just installed a brand new EVF, but I don't know hot to diagnose the rest of the solenoids. they do seem to operate fine and perform all the shifts at rest?

Just change the accumulator..280 dollars shipped to you .. authentic..like I said 99 percent sure

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[murat]

Just change the accumulator..280 dollars shipped to you .. authentic..like I said 99 percent sure

I Agree
do you have a recommended place to order?
Thanks!

 

[theflash32]

I cannot recommend any place but here are two that came across my desk

For Sale - Ferrari 58552368 F1 Transmission Pressure Accumulator Bottle for 360 + F430 and 355

I have some of these genuine Magnetti Marelli units if anyone needs one, an adaptor (supplied) is needed for the 355. [ATTACH] [ATTACH]

www.ferrarichat.com

Accumulator - Ferrari F1 - SequParts

The accumulator is responsible to store the pressure of the hydraulic system for later access by the actuators. The bladder type accumulator has two cells: one cell storing the hydraulic fluid and one cell containing a gas to create counterpressure. Both cells are separated by a membrane. These...

www.sequparts.com

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[StefVan]

Changing the accumulator is a always a good thing to do but will not fix your issue. You have 100% an important internal hydraulic leak you need to fix as the pressure drop happens only when your engine is running. Checking your actuator would be a good start.

Some more useful tips here: Smart eMT F1 Relay ECU - Recommendations - SIS Techno - Scud Ing Swiss

 

[theflash32]

Changing the accumulator is a always a good thing to do but will not fix your issue. You have 100% an important internal hydraulic leak you need to fix as the pressure drop happens only when your engine is running. Checking your actuator would be a good start.

Some more useful tips here: Smart eMT F1 Relay ECU - Recommendations - SIS Techno - Scud Ing Swiss

Although it appears that the pressure drops fast when running it is also dropping fast when engine is off ..the pump cycle rate of one second is the key here .. one second is way too short. The accumulator is not storing enough reserve pressure to allow pressure to maintain longer. If solenoids and power unit are fine no fluid should be sent to actuator in neutral with engine running. The only circuit that should be energized with the engine running vs not running is the clutch circuit.

There may be multiple problems here but we need to start with fixing the short pump "on time " first and take it from there

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[theflash32]

@murat

Any updates?

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[murat]

OK, as advised, I changed the accumulator and everything is fine now Thank you for all the kind support.
lesson learned, F1 ACUUMULATOR NEEDS TO BE CHANGED EVERY 10 YEARS, regardless of mileage, the rubber membrane inside just disintegrates, ait trapped inside helps retain some pressure reservoir function, but the fluid aerated and pressure erratic, all kinds of weird shifting problems happen.