[Barchetta]

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between a Tiptronic and F1 gearbox?

I've read the Tiptronic is just a typical automatic with some manual control and fancy buttons. And the F1 uses an electrohydraulic clutch?

Unfortunetly I still don't understand the mechanical differences here.

and maybe why the F1 is better.

 

[Stradale]

Triptronic is an automatic gearbox with the gears changable manually via up and down buttons on the steering wheel.

F1 gearbox is a manual gearbox with the change done via electrical means and the up and down change can be made using paddles found on either side of the steering wheel. Right for up change and left for downchange. F1 cars currently use this system.

 

[Barchetta]

Ok, that pretty much just confirms what I already knew. Maybe I will try to re-word my question. Basically what I know is with an Automatic you put it in drive and a computer decides when to change gears for you, where as a manual you chose. (simplified obviously)

So my question would be, what is the difference then between an "automatic" that you can manually change with buttons and a "manual" with paddles, which can also be controlled by the cpu. Neither has a manually operated clutch, and both have the option to switch from Automatic to Manual. They seem to do the same thing (virtually) so what is it that sets them apart?
The F1 gears are changed electronically, but wouldn't the Tiptronic also have to be electrical considering you are using buttons. I guess Im looking for a technical breakdown of the two.

 

[Stradale]

Ok, that pretty much just confirms what I already knew. Maybe I will try to re-word my question. Basically what I know is with an Automatic you put it in drive and a computer decides when to change gears for you, where as a manual you chose. (simplified obviously)

So my question would be, what is the difference then between an "automatic" that you can manually change with buttons and a "manual" with paddles, which can also be controlled by the cpu. Neither has a manually operated clutch, and both have the option to switch from Automatic to Manual. They seem to do the same thing (virtually) so what is it that sets them apart?
The F1 gears are changed electronically, but wouldn't the Tiptronic also have to be electrical considering you are using buttons. I guess Im looking for a technical breakdown of the two.

An automatic gearbox has torque converter, no clutch. Yes you can change from auto to manually controlled change. F1 gearbox has clutch, thought there is no third foot paddle. Changing is done electronically by the ECU at the command of the driver. F1 box has an auto button that will transform it to a "auot-shift" but it is still a "manual gearbox" with changes done automatically by the ECU..

 

[sdd]

Will the F1 downshift for you? I thought another difference is that the F1, being a quasi-manual gearbox, will not change gears for you, except that its programming will force an upshift when you get to redline. That is, it cannot downshift (select a lower gear) for you. The Tiptronic, being an automatic, will select higher gears and lower gears for you, in response to your torque commands (right foot).

 

[Stradale]

Will the F1 downshift for you? I thought another difference is that the F1, being a quasi-manual gearbox, will not change gears for you, except that its programming will force an upshift when you get to redline. That is, it cannot downshift (select a lower gear) for you. The Tiptronic, being an automatic, will select higher gears and lower gears for you, in response to your torque commands (right foot).

If it's set "auto mode" yes, it'll downshift/upshift depending on the car speed. On the "manual mode" it will downshift when the car slows down but it will not upshift for you. The engine limiter will cut in and you will certainly be reminded, it's time to shift up.

 

[Barchetta]

Awesome, that explains it quite well. I wasn't aware automatics had no clutch, I figured it they just had some sort of automatic built in clutch. Thanks for the info Stradale.

So then on a side note, how exactly does the automatic gearbox work with a torque converter? Or maybe I should ask.....what is a torque converter?

 

[sdd]

This might be helpful:
http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_understandtorqueconver.cfm

And these as well:
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43836/article.html

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/46029/article.html

Interesting, Stradale's description of the F1 tranny is exactly opposite to the way a Maserati Coupe paddle shifter operated on my test drive: when you got to redline in any gear, it would shift up, but no downshift would occur until you came to a near stop, in which case it would select 1st gear for you and start over. Anyway, that's how it was, IIRC (though my test drive was about two years ago).

 

[Andrew]

Here is some more great info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter

 

[Pete04222]

Or maybe I should ask.....what is a torque converter?

The torque convertor is a viscous coupling between the engine and transmission. Over simplified, it would be like two box fans placed close together. You plug one fan in and turn it on, the other fan will turn also because of the air moving through it. Now you machine these 2 fans so they have really close tolerances, put them in a solid housing, replace the air with hydraulic oil (which cannot be compressed) and there you have it.

 

[Stradale]

Interesting, Stradale's description of the F1 tranny is exactly opposite to the way a Maserati Coupe paddle shifter operated on my test drive: when you got to redline in any gear, it would shift up, but no downshift would occur until you came to a near stop, in which case it would select 1st gear for you and start over. Anyway, that's how it was, IIRC (though my test drive was about two years ago).

The Ferrari F1 works the same as the Maserati (except they're called by different names). You're right the F1 will shift down, up to 2, then 1 when it sense the car is slowing down a lot or going to stop. When you stop and your foot is on the brakes, the gear will be in 1. If you release the brakes it will give an alarm and revert to N.

Sorry I didn't elaborate earlier. :wink:

 

[backindauk]

Can you stall a F1 transmission? I mean, not purposely!

So, like in my 530i BMW, Tiptronic transmission is still an automatic gearbox with a Manual (+/-) mode. If you select tiptronic mode it does not downshift or upshift at all. So you just have control over when the gears change and that is it... These changes take around a second.

In the new M5, a manual sequential SMG gearbox which is "F1"? which can be used in "Automatic" modes where the computer will do all the shifting, or in "Manual" mode where the shifting is entirely driver controlled (via paddles or gear lever +/- controls).


Similar concept with Auto and F1 Ferraris i am guessing. The Automatic is "tiptronic".

 

[sdd]

Stradale: thanks for the clarification. So, getting back to Barchetta's original question, the major difference between Tiptronic and F1, IMHO, is that Tiptronic, being fully automatic, will downshift for you. Thus, if you are cruising along in 3rd gear and suddenly go to wide open throttle, Tiptronic (or any other fully auto) will downshift to 2nd. In F1 (or a manual, for that matter), the transmission will stay in 3rd. You must choose 2nd, if you want responsive acceleration. Nevertheless, in the F1, if you get the revs up to redline, it will then shift to 4th, etc.

Tiptronic has additional features from typical automatics,
http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/911/c4s/transmission/tiptronic.htm
but I suppose that's back to the convenience vs. control and involvement debate.

 

[Stradale]

Nevertheless, in the F1, if you get the revs up to redline, it will then shift to 4th, etc.

No it won't. It will hit the rev limiter and the engine will rev any higher and you will be "informed" quite clearly that you have to up-shift. The only time the rev limiter will not work is when you change down, if you're over the red zone, you better brake like mad to get the rev down or change up again. There is no safety net in this instance. You'll realise this when you're driving on the track.