Should Ferrari Launch A New Entry Level "Dino" ?
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Definitely! Now that the smallest (entry level) Ferrari has gone to 4.3 litres. Soon this will be bored to 4.5 litres and even up to 6 litres, since the new V12s will be in the 6 litre bracket. Therefore there is a niche market of 3-litre cars that the Porsche boxsters had been dominating the market that will suit the 3-litre Ferraris. But I have to go with a V8. V6 are not meant for exotic brand like Ferrari. A V6 is common in my opinion. The 308s and the 328s did fine with V8, they're compact yet powerful and most important exotic. It has to be exotic because Ferrari will charge premium over other marquee. And it has to be mid-engine!
Turbo, I don't think that's Ferrari's philosophy at the moment. Both they and BMW believe that new engine technology like VVT etc is better in the long run. Only Porsche believe in turbos and that's because their flat 6 just can't produce the hp that they want and they're thinking of moving to V8. As for Mercedes they're not innovators, they just take the easy way out, supercharger or turbo. Just bolt them on and sell with premiums!!
Turbo, I don't think that's Ferrari's philosophy at the moment. Both they and BMW believe that new engine technology like VVT etc is better in the long run. Only Porsche believe in turbos and that's because their flat 6 just can't produce the hp that they want and they're thinking of moving to V8. As for Mercedes they're not innovators, they just take the easy way out, supercharger or turbo. Just bolt them on and sell with premiums!!
"Low priced" Ferrari
I definitly think Ferrari needs a "cheap" car.
the F430 is priced above a 911 Turbo, the V12s are in Aston Vanquish League.
I think a V8 car, in a lower spec than the F430, maybe with 400 hp, lighter weight etc. could give the 911 S, Aston Vantage etc. a run for their money and bring back Ferrari in a group where more normal people can start buying the marque before they reach 50 or kill their dad.
Also, given the new engine spec (no cambelts etc), it would make maintenance a lot cheaper. Engine should be rear, as for all V8s, body could be AL or fiber, why not, i like that idea, like on early 308s....
It could be a spider, but most people would prefer a berlinetta.
It would also bring them to a somehow more competitive market, where also "mainstream" manufacturers mix up (next Audi RS4, BMW M3,M6, maybe future Lexus etc)...
I definitly think Ferrari needs a "cheap" car.
the F430 is priced above a 911 Turbo, the V12s are in Aston Vanquish League.
I think a V8 car, in a lower spec than the F430, maybe with 400 hp, lighter weight etc. could give the 911 S, Aston Vantage etc. a run for their money and bring back Ferrari in a group where more normal people can start buying the marque before they reach 50 or kill their dad.
Also, given the new engine spec (no cambelts etc), it would make maintenance a lot cheaper. Engine should be rear, as for all V8s, body could be AL or fiber, why not, i like that idea, like on early 308s....
It could be a spider, but most people would prefer a berlinetta.
It would also bring them to a somehow more competitive market, where also "mainstream" manufacturers mix up (next Audi RS4, BMW M3,M6, maybe future Lexus etc)...
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but why would Ferrari want to compete with mainstream players? Surely part of the mystique relates to the small volume of cars produced. Prices are then a refection of supply and demand. I would personally hate to see them produced in higher numbers or a low cost model. If you get to visit the factory, I think you will see something really special, namely a relatively simple assembly line with real people putting together masterpieces on wheels. And no I can't afford a new model either, but seeing more on the road would spoil it for me. I don't think Enzo would approve
You can hardly call Porsche 911 and Aston Martin V8 Vantage main stream! But that are the models that are taking customers away because the 430 has to be priced at around 120,000+ pounds. Customers just don't buy Ferraris because they are Ferraris. the 612 is a flop and the 575 is not moving!! Jean Todt was trying very hard to push the V12s when he was here in KL in a private reception for Ferrari owners. Only the 430 is on a long waiting list. That is the reality of the Ferrari car business. They need another big seller if they are to maintain the low volume but prestiege models like the 612. Car business is fickle, produce one bad model and the customers disappear. And in Ferrari's case they have only one good model at the moment and it is a situation they are only too aware of.
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I agree with you there Stradale.
I also think that it would be a bit silly for Ferrari to make a more affordable model though. It could possibly reduce Ferrari's facade. I think that would offend current Ferrari owners, it is a product for the affluent after all!. But on the other hand it's almost like this debate:
Whether your BMW costs 250,000 (M5) or 50,000 (120i), it is still a BMW.
People arent going to say (unless of course, they are a BMW owner already - with an M5 of course) "John has a cheap BMW" they say "John has a BMW" Both have BMW - regardless of what model it is, it is a BMW.
Now, what would be the difference here...
Peter has a a 430, costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then Mike comes along with his 100,000 dollars Ferrari - The . They are still Ferrari, no? When you say "i have a Ferrari" people dont care which one it is, they say "cool, take me for a drive"
Maybe Ferrari is not doing so well with its more expensive models, but look at the success of the 360, now look how many orders there are for the 430. I think the sheer volume of sales will make up for the lack of sales in their other products.
I do have a suggestion. Ferrari could have another 360/430esque car, V8... With a different concept. Something that would be around the price of the 430 - this would provide a choice between two models, rather than a few body configurations. Im not sure of the market trends, what people like and so on but it seems that there is a high demand for sleek design. Maybe it could be a car that is based loosely around the 430, but features a radical body shape.
Personally, i would like to see Ferrari building Boxer/TR cars again. They have the knowledge and expertise to successfully do so - they would also have the only flat 12/mid engine car on the market? Im not sure on that.
They certainly do have a competetive advantage here.
It is one of those mysteries... There are many outcomes possible.
I also think that it would be a bit silly for Ferrari to make a more affordable model though. It could possibly reduce Ferrari's facade. I think that would offend current Ferrari owners, it is a product for the affluent after all!. But on the other hand it's almost like this debate:
Whether your BMW costs 250,000 (M5) or 50,000 (120i), it is still a BMW.
People arent going to say (unless of course, they are a BMW owner already - with an M5 of course) "John has a cheap BMW" they say "John has a BMW" Both have BMW - regardless of what model it is, it is a BMW.
Now, what would be the difference here...
Peter has a a 430, costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then Mike comes along with his 100,000 dollars Ferrari - The . They are still Ferrari, no? When you say "i have a Ferrari" people dont care which one it is, they say "cool, take me for a drive"
Maybe Ferrari is not doing so well with its more expensive models, but look at the success of the 360, now look how many orders there are for the 430. I think the sheer volume of sales will make up for the lack of sales in their other products.
I do have a suggestion. Ferrari could have another 360/430esque car, V8... With a different concept. Something that would be around the price of the 430 - this would provide a choice between two models, rather than a few body configurations. Im not sure of the market trends, what people like and so on but it seems that there is a high demand for sleek design. Maybe it could be a car that is based loosely around the 430, but features a radical body shape.
Personally, i would like to see Ferrari building Boxer/TR cars again. They have the knowledge and expertise to successfully do so - they would also have the only flat 12/mid engine car on the market? Im not sure on that.
They certainly do have a competetive advantage here.
It is one of those mysteries... There are many outcomes possible.
Agreed. It's funny, in college I actually wrote a design history paper on the evolution from the 246 Dino form through the 360. So much of the design language carried over from generation to generation. And that form has always been associated with the lowest priced Ferrari, i.e. 308, 328, 348, etc. Thanks gma365 for validating my paper.gma365 said:
I will say though that this is an interesting debate. Hard to decide though. Think about what happened to Jaguar when they came out with the X-Type. Personally, Jaguar lost a bit of mystique in my mind because I saw them all over, not to mention the cost cutting measures they had to make. Quality and materials suffered because of it. Not to say Jaguar and Ferrari are in the same league, but I'd be a little dissapointed if I sat in a $60,000 F-Car with a plastic interior, fake leather, and an automatic trans.
Just my 2 cents though.
I know what you meanBrentC said:Agreed. It's funny, in college I actually wrote a design history paper on the evolution from the 246 Dino form through the 360. So much of the design language carried over from generation to generation. And that form has always been associated with the lowest priced Ferrari, i.e. 308, 328, 348, etc. Thanks gma365 for validating my paper.gma365 said:
I will say though that this is an interesting debate. Hard to decide though. Think about what happened to Jaguar when they came out with the X-Type. Personally, Jaguar lost a bit of mystique in my mind because I saw them all over, not to mention the cost cutting measures they had to make. Quality and materials suffered because of it. Not to say Jaguar and Ferrari are in the same league, but I'd be a little dissapointed if I sat in a $60,000 F-Car with a plastic interior, fake leather, and an automatic trans.
Just my 2 cents though.
one of my uncle's has an X, the 2 litre one even, so only FWD and the Ford influances are VERY noticable and so is the leather it smells & feels cheap not real
another uncle has an XJ8 then and well, THAT IS ALL THE WAY JAG!!
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all arguments are valid, but another point to consider that Ferrari already has an entry level car. Its called a different name(Maserati) just like the dino was.
By the way Stradale most Ferrari owners I know bought their cars cuz they WERE Ferrari. I don't think you can discount the passion Ferrari people have in spite of what they are offered. If the were critical of build quality and performance, Ferrari would gave gone out of business 40years ago. Porsche is without a doubt mainstream by virtue of the boxster and Cayenne whether they produce the 911 or not.
Anyway and the end of the day I think we would all agree on one thing FORZA FERRARI!
By the way Stradale most Ferrari owners I know bought their cars cuz they WERE Ferrari. I don't think you can discount the passion Ferrari people have in spite of what they are offered. If the were critical of build quality and performance, Ferrari would gave gone out of business 40years ago. Porsche is without a doubt mainstream by virtue of the boxster and Cayenne whether they produce the 911 or not.
Anyway and the end of the day I think we would all agree on one thing FORZA FERRARI!
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For what my opinion is worth, I do think that Ferrari needs a "Ferrari" badged entry level model. For the sake of history I would also bring back the "Dino" branding as it has many positive values attached to it. In my mind entry level pricing would still be in the Euro/$100-120k range so we are not exactly talking about a "budget" car filled with bits from the Fiat parts bin.
Definitely mid engine, probably a 3 liter V8, no Turbo, probably a fiberglass body for cost and weight reasons. 3 seats would give it cache but more likely 2 although 3 seats would allow for one "world" model without having to worry about the manufacturing complexity of having to make RHD and LHD versions. It would available in one color, Rossa Corsa. No radio/CD player, I would put the money into having a great sounding exhaust system.
The business reason, portfolio balance. Ferrari normally only sells 3 models (8 cylinder sports car, 12 cylinder GT, 12 cylinder GT 2+2). By definition (price and target group) the big 12 cylinder models are going to be low volume propositions even in the best of circumstances. These models are developed with the expectation of a 8-10 year model run. Launch a car that the market does not embrace, and Ferrari is going to be under financial pressure due to the huge development costs (as per the current situation with the 612). A higher volume entry level car will provide flexibiltiy and financial security.
Definitely mid engine, probably a 3 liter V8, no Turbo, probably a fiberglass body for cost and weight reasons. 3 seats would give it cache but more likely 2 although 3 seats would allow for one "world" model without having to worry about the manufacturing complexity of having to make RHD and LHD versions. It would available in one color, Rossa Corsa. No radio/CD player, I would put the money into having a great sounding exhaust system.
The business reason, portfolio balance. Ferrari normally only sells 3 models (8 cylinder sports car, 12 cylinder GT, 12 cylinder GT 2+2). By definition (price and target group) the big 12 cylinder models are going to be low volume propositions even in the best of circumstances. These models are developed with the expectation of a 8-10 year model run. Launch a car that the market does not embrace, and Ferrari is going to be under financial pressure due to the huge development costs (as per the current situation with the 612). A higher volume entry level car will provide flexibiltiy and financial security.
Maserati had been filling the niche as the "entry-level Ferrari", but now that the two marques are going separate ways, I think maybe Ferrari will need a new Dino.
The trick will to keep prices just high enough and production low enough to keep some exclusivity going. The trouble with Porsche is that they build too many cars and are too common. Ferrari must not go down that path!
The trick will to keep prices just high enough and production low enough to keep some exclusivity going. The trouble with Porsche is that they build too many cars and are too common. Ferrari must not go down that path!
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Good Debate !!!!
Personally I do not like Ferrari to build sych a car, but........ Ferrari have to.
They want to be individual, so they need profit.
Ferrari can build such a car, and it can be succesefull in both directions -- profit and fans satisfaction. They just need to feel the limit where Ferrari remains an real Ferrari. No plastic, no common base with others marks, asf...
FORZA FERRARI AETERNA
Personally I do not like Ferrari to build sych a car, but........ Ferrari have to.
They want to be individual, so they need profit.
Ferrari can build such a car, and it can be succesefull in both directions -- profit and fans satisfaction. They just need to feel the limit where Ferrari remains an real Ferrari. No plastic, no common base with others marks, asf...
FORZA FERRARI AETERNA
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Great topic!
I would also agree that Ferrari needs an entry level car as well. As has been pointed out here, an entry level car does not mean a very low price. I think a price of $100,000 would be ideal and I would say a V8.
Using the Dino badge as Boxer suggested is also not a bad idea. Production could be around the same as the existing V8 360/430.
I would also agree that Ferrari needs an entry level car as well. As has been pointed out here, an entry level car does not mean a very low price. I think a price of $100,000 would be ideal and I would say a V8.
Using the Dino badge as Boxer suggested is also not a bad idea. Production could be around the same as the existing V8 360/430.
Seriously, if they do decide on another V8 entry level model, they will have to have a new factory. Anyone that have visited the factory will realise that it's very tight, especially after Luca announced the expansion of production from 4,500 to 5,000 units. There is a huge covered car park/store behind the assembly plant, perhaps they can expand the plant to there.
Suggestion:
take the 308/328 body style,
update the aerodynamics just a bit (full undertray, for example),
replace anachronistic features like pop-up headlights,
put the 355's engine in it (probably still transverse if you want to retain a trunk!),
replace the wheels with more modern ones, but still five-spoke,
replace the interior with an up-to-date one,
and make any other changes to meet current regulations,
and sell it for about the same as the Maserati, about $85k.
I think it would sell like hotcakes!
take the 308/328 body style,
update the aerodynamics just a bit (full undertray, for example),
replace anachronistic features like pop-up headlights,
put the 355's engine in it (probably still transverse if you want to retain a trunk!),
replace the wheels with more modern ones, but still five-spoke,
replace the interior with an up-to-date one,
and make any other changes to meet current regulations,
and sell it for about the same as the Maserati, about $85k.
I think it would sell like hotcakes!
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