[Boxer]

Originally Ferrari introduced the 2+2 to gain needed volume and sales. Today the 8 cylinder 2 seat sports cars provide the volume. In terms of niche, if you need four seats the new Maserati Quartoporte provides nearly the same performance with significantly better comfort. Hence wouldn't the development resources spent on the 2+2 be better applied to developing an additional 2 seater?

 

[JazzyO]

Very interesting question, never thought about it.

I think the Quattroporte is not a strictly correct analogy, after all it has 4 doors (although that does sound much better in Italian!). But the question still needs to be asked: what audience buys a modern Ferrari 2+2? If I was in the market for such a car, I would far sooner go for a Bentley GT - it has more cossetting style than the Ferrari which, in some respects, does not know what it wants to be. Grand tourer, family car, every day car or sports car?

I would really like Ferrari to devote its energy to performance vehicles per se. That doesn't mean they can't be useable but the 550/599 type car should be the most practical car Ferrari makes, with the rest of the range focusing on pure driving focus.

A lightweight entry level car is still what I would like to see. This may be in development as the new Dino, whatever it is going to be called, if indeed it is underdevelopment. It should not be badged a Ferrari, just to keep the name exclusive and production numbers down, but it should be a clear F-design (ie Pinin) that fits in the rest of the line.

On the other end of the spectrum, a new hypercar is certainly required and is under development but I think there is a gap between 599 and Enzo price that could be filled by a V10 2-seater car. It should be focused more on track use, sort of a Scuderia on steriods. Could be quite interesting.

All-in-all, though, I think Ferrari has a great line-up at the moment. The Scuderia didn't come a moment too soon, though.


Onno



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[Boxer]

I would love to see Ferrari go back to its roots and develop a simple performance focused entry level car that could be raced on Sunday and driven to the office on Monday. I believe Lotus has proven that a large market exists for these types of cars with the success of the Elise. It would need to be a 6 or 8 cylinder possibly turbo charged. It would need to be designed to keep the racing maintenance costs at a reasonable level.
Definitely more interesting than another large 2+2.

 

[archiegibbs]

It would be nice to see a proper production 3 seater, not just a prototype.
As for the 2+2, why not? Porsche has been succesful with the 911. Ok you wouldn't fit 2 adults in the back, and it would be fiddly trying to get kids in and out of their booster seats, but at least you can put your laptop, briefcase or jacket on the back seat. Porsche have got the design for a rear engined 2+2 down to perfection, I don't think Ferrari got it right with the 308GT4 or Mondial, maybe they could learn something from Porsche?
However, the 456 being front engined was a much better design. I don't think the 456's depreciation problems are down to it being a 2+2, they are down to the fact there are so many bad stories about reliability and maintenance costs. People are scared to buy them once they are over 5 yrs old incase it bankrupts them. I would buy a 456 tomorrow if I thought it would be as reliable and as cheap to run as my 328.

But, maybe Boxer's right and Ferrari should just concentrate on what they do best and build 2 seater sports cars (or 3 seaters please), and leave the 2+2's to Maserati. I'm sure I read that the new Dino (if it ever comes out) could be a front engined V8 2+2, that get's my vote.

 

[JazzyO]

I don't think the 456's depreciation problems are down to it being a 2+2, they are down to the fact there are so many bad stories about reliability and maintenance costs. People are scared to buy them once they are over 5 yrs old incase it bankrupts them.

I have to disagree there - by far the biggest slice of depreciation of 456s occured in the first 3 years, while the car is still in production. It is the same for the 612, and was no different for the 365GT4/4xx as far as I am aware. I still think that is because there is a limited market for them.

Your point is valid, it is just not the major cause of depreciation IMHO. Take the depreciation between a 550 and a 456 built in 2000 for example. The 456 was the more expensive car, but in 2003 would have been significantly cheaper to buy assuming similar condition and mileage. And in 2007 the story is no different, although the gap between them has diminished.


Onno



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[Dj Dirk]

how could they not produce a 2+2, it's always been in the company line-up & they are always gorgeous cars
don't forget there was already one almost 10 years before the GTE was introduced
granted, that wasn't in the factory line-up but somebody did had it made because it was wanted

the current line up is big enough, why drop a car that has always been in the list & has always sold to replace it with another new smaller model?

 

[viscount aero]

There is a huge following of buyers that will demand a 2+2 exists from the marque (which in my summation goes hand-and-hand with the V12). In my opinion, were it to be axed, a legion of many fans will feel alienated from the brand and this will bode very badly for image and heritage.

I personally don't much care for what is currently offered from Ferrari in the 360/430 2-seater mid-engined body style. I am biased to the 599GTB (2 seater), 612, and earlier V12 2+2s. I would want to see future updates to this line of cars, essentially proper front-engined GT cars.

 

[viscount aero]

I don't think the 456's depreciation problems are down to it being a 2+2, they are down to the fact there are so many bad stories about reliability and maintenance costs. People are scared to buy them once they are over 5 yrs old incase it bankrupts them. I would buy a 456 tomorrow if I thought it would be as reliable and as cheap to run as my 328.

I agree with that. I like, really like, the 456, but forget it. It can go to rock bottom prices below that of a used Camry and i will not buy one... not ever.

 

[Maranellohouse]

When the 456 becomes cheap enough I'll have one to tootle around in when I retire Although by then petrol here will be £40 a gallon and road tax £2200 a year I think they're a beautiful car.

Oh and I said yeas Ferrari should continue to make them as they will take some sales from other marques, which can only be a good thing.

 

[Boxer]

When the 456 becomes cheap enough I'll have one to tootle around in when I retire Although by then petrol here will be £40 a gallon and road tax £2200 a year I think they're a beautiful car.

Oh and I said yeas Ferrari should continue to make them as they will take some sales from other marques, which can only be a good thing.

Agree that the 456 GT is a beautiful car, my biggest fear about buying another is that the older they get, the already $$$$ maintenance bills will just continue to increase.

 

[t1fosI]

I voted Yes, for the simple reason that when I was at the FOC UK concours I saw a family of 4 (2 Adults + 2 Kids) in a 456 and they seemed to be really enjoying themselves.

I guess the deal is, is that sometimes its nice to share the experience with more than one passenger . (I would draw the line at an Estate/Tourer/4WD!)

The point about development costs is valid, although with the amount of F430's rolling off the line at the moment they probably will not need to worry for a while

 

[archiegibbs]

I voted Yes, for the simple reason that when I was at the FOC UK concours I saw a family of 4 (2 Adults + 2 Kids) in a 456 and they seemed to be really enjoying themselves.

I guess the deal is, is that sometimes its nice to share the experience with more than one passenger . (I would draw the line at an Estate/Tourer/4WD!)

The point about development costs is valid, although with the amount of F430's rolling off the line at the moment they probably will not need to worry for a while

With another child due in a few weeks, I can see a potential problem when I want to go out in the 328 with my son. Therefore, in a couple of years a 2+2 may be a necessity. I just wish the 456 had a better reputation for reliability. I think I'd rather play it safe and go for a Maserati.

 

[Boxer]

With another child due in a few weeks, I can see a potential problem when I want to go out in the 328 with my son. Therefore, in a couple of years a 2+2 may be a necessity. I just wish the 456 had a better reputation for reliability. I think I'd rather play it safe and go for a Maserati.

Alternatively a Mondiat t ? or a 365 GTC/4 (one of the best sounding Ferraris)

 

[archiegibbs]

A GTC/4 is definitely a consideration. I've seen a couple at shows this year and quite like them. I think the 550 owes more to the C4 than the B4 (apart from the seating). The 12 cylinder engine is another attraction.

My biggest problem with all 4 seater Ferrari's is that they don't look like Ferrari's. What I mean by that is, the stereotypical boyhood dream of a Ferrari, as per the bedroom wall poster ie, a beautiful and even outrageous, low down sleak sportscar, eg: 308/328, Testarossa, 288 GTO, F40/50, F355, 360, Enzo, 430.

A 3 seater Ferrari would be perfect for me and 2 kids on the basis that my wife still hasn't been in the 328 and isn't likely to in the long term.

 

[Boxer]

A 3 seater Ferrari would be perfect for me and 2 kids on the basis that my wife still hasn't been in the 328 and isn't likely to in the long term.

Tough choice. Ferrari only made one 3 seater, the 365 P. Of the 2 units produced, both are in private collections and I doubt either will ever come up for sale on the open market.

 

[archiegibbs]

The 365P was pretty ugly too. There is of course the 3 seater F1 car which was discussed last week.

I'm thinking more of an entry level V6/V8 mid engined 3 seater, for under 100K euro's. It's never going to happen, but I can dream.

I think there is a huge gap in the market for that type of car and there would be demand. The Fiat group should produce something along these lines, even if it had a Lancia, Alfa or Maserati badge I would be very, very tempted.

A car like that could potentially take sales away from the entry level Jag XK's, and 911's, both of which are traditional 2+2's with no room in the back.

 

[stile - alpine]

Archie, just buy a McLaren F1 and finish your problems hehehehehehe

NO, don't do that!! Who knows if they won't use that money to steal more Ferrari projects? =P

 

[archiegibbs]

Archie, just buy a McLaren F1 and finish your problems hehehehehehe

NO, don't do that!! Who knows if they won't use that money to steal more Ferrari projects? =P

In my dreams. I'd have to win the lottery several times over to be in a position to justify that sort of expenditure on a car.

 

[Boxer]

The 365P was pretty ugly too. There is of course the 3 seater F1 car which was discussed last week.

I'm thinking more of an entry level V6/V8 mid engined 3 seater, for under 100K euro's. It's never going to happen, but I can dream.

I think there is a huge gap in the market for that type of car and there would be demand. The Fiat group should produce something along these lines, even if it had a Lancia, Alfa or Maserati badge I would be very, very tempted.

A car like that could potentially take sales away from the entry level Jag XK's, and 911's, both of which are traditional 2+2's with no room in the back.

Well, the new 8 cylinder Ferrari to be launched next year will be a 2+2.

Alternatively you could buy an early Testarossa. Take it apart and then get Al and his friends to custom build a 3 seat body for you. A Testarossa P ?

 

[archiegibbs]

Well, the new 8 cylinder Ferrari to be launched next year will be a 2+2.

Alternatively you could buy an early Testarossa. Take it apart and then get Al and his friends to custom build a 3 seat body for you. A Testarossa P ?

A TR's probably wide enough for 3 seats anyway, or at worst 1 grown up seat and 2 kids seats. Perfect solution, must go now, time to search the dealers for a TR