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Discussion Starter #1
Who can say, what R the main opponents for Ferrari's Street cars?

Do somebody think that Lamborghini Murcielago is faster than 575M? Or that Bugatti 16.4 Veyron with 16 cylyndres and 1001 hp can be faster yhan Enzo? Or maybe Mercedes SLR McLaren, or Porsche Carrera GT, or Some non serial cars like Pagani Zonda, Coenisseg CC, Saleen S7????

I can't find a REAL OPPONENT for FERRARI! U?
The challenge with Ferrari can be only in full sales Ferraris class. U can find opponents only for F360, F430, 612 and MAYBE for 550 and 575. MAYBE. :green: My heart is Rossa because I love FERRARI !!!!
 

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depends on wich class that you are talking about

first off all, the Bugatti, that is still a myth, it's still a dead born car. they rate that they keep going it will always stay a concept car.
the Zonda, well that's in a league of its own, you could compare it with an Enzo, but i think that i would rather have a Zonda then., they are so sexy and have an amazing chassis & suspension., and most importantly, manual gearbox and drivers involvment is required.
don't like the SLR it's a disgrace to McLaren, it's just an overpriced Mercedes, the Carrera GT is pretty nice.
for the saleen, well that's where you get the best bang for your buks. it's the cheapest one of them all, and it's damn powerfull with good looks.
and then the Koenigsegg, the hottest rival of the Zonda, it's fast, it looks like nothing else, but still, my heart goes out to the Zonda
 

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Discussion Starter #3
FERRARI THE BEST

I agree, Zonda is good, but it is not an integral sportcar: Good suspension and its all, engine is foreign (Mercedes 7.2l turbo !!!!!!), I hate turbo, it is like dopping in sport.... But design is pretty good. Bugatti is deadborn like U said, Lamborghini is on an different level, Koenisseg is half concept, half serrial car, I don'r know, U can take a Zonda, but I think Ferrari is better, it is onnest, No DOPPING!!!! Real Steering..... REAL ROSSA
 

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Re: FERRARI THE BEST

4FERRARI said:
I agree, Zonda is good, but it is not an integral sportcar: Good suspension and its all, engine is foreign (Mercedes 7.2l turbo !!!!!!), I hate turbo, it is like dopping in sport.... But design is pretty good. Bugatti is deadborn like U said, Lamborghini is on an different level, Koenisseg is half concept, half serrial car, I don'r know, U can take a Zonda, but I think Ferrari is better, it is onnest, No DOPPING!!!! Real Steering..... REAL ROSSA
The Zonda does not use a turbo engine. It's 7.2 litres AMG Mercedes engine.

You must be very young, judging from the way you argue your case.
 

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Like Stradale said

the Pagani's use a 7.3 liter natural aspired engine, handbuilt by AMG and especially designed for Pagani, Mercedes does not use that engine , and it doesn't have turbo's.
and yes i did not make a typo, it's 7.3 liters, not 7.2

if you would have to choose between the better track car from an Enzo or a Zonda, then yes the Enzo would be better since that's what it's been build for.
of you would go for pure driving pleasure and drivers involvment then the it's the Zonda hands down that wins.

the car has one of the best chassis out there, since this year they have a new version from the brembo brakes and it's a manual, and looks fantastic.
read any report out there on the Zonda and EVERYBODY praises that car.


besides if you hate Turbo's that much that you must really hate the F40
 

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Yes Dirk you're correct. They changed the engine from 7.2 to 7.3 as of 2002.

I had the chance to visit the factory in 2002 and talk to te owner/designer (can't remember his name). It's just a very small 2-level factory thatlooksmore like a big workshop rather than a factory. Since we just came from the Lamborghini factory earlier, the shock was understandable! :green:

But it has the autoclave and other eqipment for producing the body tub and panels. It's understandable that the parts are outsourced but they had a full design team with draftsmen, etc on level 1. The "Showroom/Marketing Dept" occupied the front of the ground floor while the partitioned back half is the production facility.

But the cars they produce are just out-of-this-world!!! The QC is superb. Real jewels and priced such. :D At Euro 400,000 in either LHD or RHD!!! I think the price has risen since.
 

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That would be Horacio Pagani, i hear that he is a really friendly down to earth man.
and you where at the factory?? how did you pulled that one off??


and the Roadster costs £393.000, so that's about €550.000
so €400.000 must have been the price for the Zonda (7.2 liters)
then came the Zonda S (7.3 liters) and now the Roadster
and also since the Paris salon the Zonda C12 S Monza (7.3 liters) and the price should be around €425.000
 

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Discussion Starter #8
FERRARI

I'm apollogising for my Greatest mistake, I was confused bu a magasine that wrote that Zona has an 7.2 turbo AMG engine. This weak I rad in Autoreview that Zonda has 7.3 AMG atmospherik engine. Sorry :|. U both R write, the handling of this car can bring U much pleasure, like from an Ferrari.... It is good that they choose an AMG engine, that is not used by Mercedes for others sportcars (such a choice made McLaren for their F1 with an engine build by Motorsport BMW AG and that were not used for others BMW sportcars. This car was superb, but it is past now, Enzo beated him).
Abot F40 U R write, I don't want to have one, because of their turbo, bu I respect every Ferrari, in specially F40 because in it's time it was the Best... My choice and dream is F50 or F50GT, an Real Ferrari in spirit of 250GTO....
I am verry happy for U that U have such chanches to visit Pagani's factory. Have U ever been on Ferrari's factory??? If Yas, than U must be HAPPY!!!!
I do not change my oppinion: Ferrari can be beated only by an another Ferrari!
 
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This car beats Enzo in every measure...for 1/5th to 1/10th the cost!

4Ferrari said:
...for Ferrari's Street cars? I can't find a REAL OPPONENT for FERRARI! U? ... I do not change my oppinion: Ferrari can be beated only by an another Ferrari!
For *street* cars, there's the Ultima GTR-720 which -- according to the Guinness Book of World Records' 3rd party testing company, Datron -- goes way, WAY faster than the Enzo in terms of:
- acceleration/braking (0-100-0 = 9.8 sec., which is more than 1 second faster than the Enzo),
- lateral g's (1.18 g's vs. 1.01 for the Enzo: 17% higher than the Enzo, on Perelli P-Zeros or equivalent Goodyears, NOT racing tyres!),
- and even top speed (Enzo's 217 vs. Ultima's 231 mph; and even then, notable mags like Car&Driver and Road & Track have been finding that Ferrari’s speedometers read a higher top-speed than the magazines' own, independent equipment, which makes me oubt the Enzo is even THAT close to the Ultima's top-speed anyway ;) ).

...and an Ultima that powerful (the GTR-720) is about $100k factory-built with air-conditioning, stereo, etc., instead of $500k or $600k for the Enzo. Gets better mileage than the Enzo, too.;)

It “beats” Ferrari’s Enzo -- Ferrari's fastest street-legal car -- in EVERY objective measure, therefore can I suggest that you’re letting your subjective biases get to you when you say “a Ferrari can be beated [sic] only by another Ferrari”? ;-) Maybe as you said, that's just your "opinion," but better be careful not to substitute your opinion for FACT, because at least 3/4 of the Ultima owners that I know of (out of approx. 50) will have good enough cars and driving-skills to wipe that smug delusion out of your puny, closed, Ferrari-centric mind by embarrassing an Enzo (or any other street-legal Ferrari) at a stoplight or a local track-day event. ;-)

It even beats Ferrari's FXX in every objective speed-measurement, and the FXX isn't even road-legal yet! (should be heavier and slower once it is legal, as nearly all road-cars have that happen) The Ultima is also faster and cheaper than the Saleen S7, so it even beats the Saleen in terms of “bang for the buck” (I noticed that someone said the Saleeen is the best car that they know of for bang-to-buck ratio).

There’s also the Koenigsegg, which is also faster (and probably slightly cheaper) than Enzo, but not as cheap or fast as an Ultima GTR-720 (except for top-speed). And the Mosler, which is nearly as cheap as an Ultima GTR-720 but about as slow as an Enzo.

And off the track, insofar as the “posing value” which Ferraris are popularly noted for: Ultima owners report -- and sometimes provided photos as proof -- that crowds which had gathered around an Enzo or F430 quickly went to the more-unique Ultima once it pulled up, and valets kept an Ultima parked out front -- replacing the F430 which they then hid in their car-park at the rear of the building.;-) But, I’ve found that Ultima-owners are more technicians/gearheads and weekend-racers (i.e. less poser-ish), compared to the percentage of Ferrari-owners who just want a car that "attracts attention from the ladies" instead of for racing it most weekends, so the swooping lines of the Ultima do attract crowds, but the actual owners are generally LESS interested in the car’s swoopy lines to attract attention, and MORE interested in those swoopy lines for the downforce and low drag they produce. ;-) After all, the Ultima was developed from a REAL GT racing car (with road-legal modifications), and even most gearheads - let alone non-gearheads - haven't yet seen its photos splashed all over, so it's more of a novelty compared to late-model Ferraris. Also, think of Gone in 60 Seconds -- not the 1970's version, the one with Angelina Jolie -- when the dude (Nicholas Cage?) acts like a wealthy poser and goes to a Ferrari dealership and explains why he'd like a CLASSIC Ferrari instead of a late model, and if you know the lines that he told the Ferrari salesman, you get the idea...

But, keep in mind, with the Ultima:
- it is primarily a street-car and is legal in most Western nations, and is suitable (and FIA-certified if you get the right rollcage and other equipment) for racing or track-days. Some even use Ultimas in pro-racing. It was the test-mule for MacLaren's F1 streetcar's drivetrain (i.e. overpriced English trash, since the Ultima is now also SPANKING the Macca F1 in every measure for 1/10th-the-price, just as badly as it beats the Enzo).
- but it's not very refined (e.g. has no ceramic brakes, nor an adjustable rollbar, nor pushrod-shockers mounted inboard to reduce the weight of the suspension, which I think the Enzo has -- unless you customize these things, which would still keep it considerably less $ than the Enzo whilst making it SPANK the Enzo even more sickeningly than the current GTR-720 already does :p )
- The performance measurements in my first paragraph are for Ultima's production version putting out 'only' 720 HP @ 7000 RPM's (yes, Chevy V8's can rev that high... even the old pre-1975 engine blocks): Its chassis can accommodate up to 1000 HP from a Chevy V8 and some people’s non-production/customized Ultimas are already 1000-HP or a little more; that's 40% more horsepower than the GTR-720 "production version" of the Ultima :eek:, which already killed the Enzo. That's about the same HP-per-kg as an Enzo would have, if it had 1400 horses! ...and a 1000 HP LSx Chevy with turbos will easily give 20 to 25 mpg in the lightweight Ultima chassis. The Chevy LSx engines have plenty of future development-potential to let Ultima beat-down Ferrari again, even if Ferrari releases its own car that out-performs the Enzo in a few years. (so does the Ultima chassis: it can gain ceramic brakes, titanium or inboard-mounted (pushrod) springs/shockers, a DCT transaxle (like the next PDK, which Porsche should release soon: DCT's shift faster than Ferrari's sequential/F1, and even faster than F1 cars -- which are limited by F1 rules to only 1 clutch -- and Ultima's dimensions and bolts are made for Porche transaxles, so Ultima has been limited for awhile by Porsche's failure to release the new PDK, but its 1980's LeMans cars, which are made (street-legal) today by Joest and a few others have PDK's already, in street-legal cars...), Ultima can also use a 4130 chrome-moly chassis, a light-weight body (thinner GRP or even carbon), etc. in the future... total cost to add these: only another $60k (+/- $10k), to keep its cost 1/4th of the Enzo, the most powerful road-legal Ferrari to-date.))
- it can be ordered as a complete, factory car and is produced in higher volumes than the Enzo probably is, so it's more of a 'production' car than the Enzo.

I don't think it's an 'opponent' to the (significantly slower) Enzo, though, just as the Enzo is not an 'opponent' to other significantly slower cars such as the Ford Fiesta (and yes, a properly outfitted Ultima racing next to an Enzo looks about the same as an Enzo racing next to a Fiesta: It's like in GT races where a car of a completely higher class overtakes some cars in slower classes, simply blowing them away without the challenge it would have when passing a decent car of its own racing-class).
Ferrari simply isn't trying to compete with the Ultima: It's too much of an unknown and they'd rather take $500k from suckas who just want to beat cars like the Carerra GT; but that doesn't change the fact that, if I see an Ultima at a stoplight and I'm in an Enzo, I wouldn't want the embarrassment of a stoplight race against most people’s Ultima.;-)
And I'd venture a guess that the GTR-720 would still beat the Enzo, even if the Ultima owner filled his 4-cubic-foot luggage bins with enough 100-dollar bills to be equivalent to the several hundreds-of-thousands that he saved by not buying an Enzo.;-)

4Ferrari said:
Do somebody think that Lamborghini Murcielago is faster than 575M?
Not sure about other speed-measurements, but even the base-model (not the LP640) of the Murcielago wins for top-speed (by a hair) and 0-100kmph (by a significant margin)...:D Let me guess, you think the Ferrari is faster?;-) For $50k more than the 575M, I think the Murcielago buyer should expect an even greater margin of better performance over the 575M, though.
 

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Good point of view Enzo = slow Italian trash :eek: , but I have to remind you that there is another Ferrari which is faster than Enzo. It is not a pure Ferrari, but it was made from Enzo. The Ferrari 612 P 4/5. Faster, powerful and it has less body weight than Enzo:D . It is still a prototipe but it will be a pruduction car (this is what Pininfarina think). :cool:

I heard that the McLaren F1 is faster than Enzo, it that true? What do you think?

Have a nice day,
Leon
 

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Wow

Wow, Enzo = slow Italian trash, I bet you feel better after getting that off your chest :) I'm glad I like Ferraris, Ultimas, and just about anything else that is a bit different. If I had the money, my garage would be huge :)
 

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Ferrari Rivals...

Leon said:
I heard that the McLaren F1 is faster than Enzo, it that true? What do you think?

Firstly the Mclaren F1 is currently faster I believe than any other Ferrari, even the Enzo and FXX. The Enzo goes up to about 350Km, whilst the FXX goes up to 360Km. Although the Mclaren F1 is weaker in power (HP), It goes up to a whopping 370-380 Km per hour.
I believe the rivals of Ferrari are:

Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Maserati, Bentley.
Bugatti and Koenigsegg just are to out of Ferrari's league sad to say, reaching super fast speeds at 395km for the koenigsegg CCR and CCX and 405 Km per hour (fastest speed for a road legal car) for the Bugatti Veyron.
 

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Thanks julian4,

Yes, the Bugatti Veyron is faster, I know, but also I have heard that they have problems to make a production, because the parts are to expensive and the cost of maintenance for the car will be too hight for a production car.I don't know is true:confused:

Okey, I saw that Napolis, the owner of P 4/5 is on this forum. He wrote that "she'll touch 240mph", the car. I think that is faster than McLaren F1? It is not a pure Ferrari, I have already said that, but it comes from a Ferrari and the passion for Ferrari;)

But also if you compare the :drive: of Enzo or of McLaren...here is a big diference, driving the F1 (I haven't have this plasure yet), is very uproar, the driving position is something new for a street car, but I think that the car is not as comfortable as Enzo. This is only my ponit of view and it is not conected with the speed.


Koenigsegg is something new for me, I saw the picture on the internet and the CCX is a very beautiful car.
 

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Ferrari speeds

Leon,
Just letting you know from memory and conversion:
Although the Ferrari P4/5 isn't a Ferrari production car and a one off,
The speed for this powerful car is 240mph is a blistering 386km per hour. Faster than the Mclaren F1, and near the Koenigsegg speeds.:drive:
 
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