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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
FWIW, I just replaced the PSR7 relay as suggested and one thing became apparent, after starting, my alternator output voltage was higher then before the changeout. Previously it was 13.8 V cruising, and now it is a healthier 14.3V cruising. May be anecdotal, but if it helps to control voltages to the ECU's as indicated by the Bus voltage, it can't be a bad thing to replace as Stef mentions.
You did very well (y) . That's exactly what's happening, PSR7 creates a voltage drop enough to confuse the TCU as it doesn't have anymore a correct reference voltage between the different power inputs (3 of them) and as a result, makes it behave randomly like measuring not correctly anymore the values from the hydraulic pressure sensor.
 

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FWIW, I just replaced the PSR7 relay as suggested and one thing became apparent, after starting, my alternator output voltage was higher than before the changeout. Previously it was 13.8 V cruising, and now it is a healthier 14.3V cruising. It May be anecdotal, but if it helps to control voltages to the ECU's as indicated by the Bus voltage, it can't be a bad thing to replace as Stef mentions.
I replaced the PSR7 as well as the AR1 and AR2, but after pulling the others and finding absolutely no signs of corrosion and/or arching I left them in. I'll keep the others onboard the car as emergency spares along with the relay pulling pliers.

And, FWIW, the Eliptech unit I installed using Stefvan's CAN-BUS interface now shows an alternator voltage of 14.3V. It was also showing less alternator output prior, somewhere in the 13V range.
 
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I found this discussion very useful, but IMO there was no closure as far as I can tell. As I am an F430 owner and an electrical/electronic engineer, I’d like to try and wrap this discussion clarifying some of the items discussed and provide a recommended solution.

There was an earlier discussion by a poster that indicated he was using the state of the plug in stab to determine whether or not to replace the relays. This is incorrect. For a simple review, relays are mechanical devices that use small amounts of current to control large amounts of current - the former through an electromagnet coil which moves large contacts to control the later. What this discussion properly identified is that after 15+ years of operation, the relays wear, and in particular in two areas. First, the armature that supports the high power contacts will weaken, and second the contacts will burn from arcing. The contacts burn because the voltage in our cars is DC, not AC, so the arc that forms when the contacts open will last until the air gap between the contacts no longer can sustain the arc. The weakened armature slows the opening of the contacts, which exacerbates the time of arcing, increasing the damage. Attached below is a photo from my car of the two contact points in a high power relay that controls one of the radiator cooling fans:

244529
244530

As you can see, there is a burn spot in the center of each contact. This burn spot is the place where the high current passes through the contacts, and it represents a resistance in the current path, reducing the voltage to the load. This is the failure that requires relay replacement. If the plug in contacts on the relay where it seats in the panel are overheating, a more serious problem exists in the plug in panel. Replacing the relay will not effect this issue.

So replacing the relays is definitely recommended, as you can’t see the contacts unless you destroy the relay with a cutting tool, and after 15 years it is almost certain many of them are damaged. I also do not recommend replacing the relays with cheap Chinese products like you can find on-line. Fortunately, you don’t have to. I have researched the proper Bosch relays for the F430, and was able to find a supplier who provides all the Bosch relays listed for replacement for $60 plus shipping. No Ferrari tax! The company is RMEUROPEAN.COM and here is a list of the F430 relays and their Bosch replacement. Simple installation took me about an hour (make sure you disconnect the battery!) – the only challenge was the fan relays which require removing part of the frunk liner to reach.

[table]
[TR]
[TD]PSR7, AR1 and AR2 SPST 30A[/TD]

[TD]https://www.rmeuropean.com/Products/0025421119-MFG14.asp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PSR4 and 5 SPDT 30A[/TD]

[TD]BMW Multi Purpose Relay (5-Prong) (Black) 61316919113 - BOSCH[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]N006 X2 (50A) SPST for Fans[/TD]

[TD]Mercedes-Benz Secondary Air Injection Pump Relay (4-Prong) (Black) 002542261928 - HELLA (rmeuropean.com)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PSR 8,9, 10 and PDR 8,9,10 SPST 30A[/TD]

[TD]Mercedes-Benz Horn Relay (4-Prong) (Black) 0025421119 - BOSCH[/TD]
[/TR]
[/table]

Note the photo below of the PSR7 etc. relay – it has gold plated contacts which are excellent for corrosion protection, which the original relays did not have - an additional benefit of the replacement relays:
244531


Post installation, in my car the water and oil temperature each ran one division lower. I am guessing that replacing the fan relays increased their speed and hence their cooling efficiency.
 

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Looks like the table from my post didn't come out right. Here's the data for ordering:

PSR7, AR1 and AR2 SPST 30A:

PSR4 and 5 SPDT 30A:

N006 X2 (50A) SPST for Fans:

PSR 8,9, 10 and PDR 8,9,10 30A SPST:
Thanks for the heads-up and clarification. I will, based on this logic, replace all the relays proactively. I can do the fan relays as I've had the frunk liner out before to rivet new leather straps for the toolkit and tire inflation kit. The relays I bought are Bosch and Hella units.

Ray
 
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I found this discussion very useful, but IMO there was no closure as far as I can tell. As I am an F430 owner and an electrical/electronic engineer, I’d like to try and wrap this discussion clarifying some of the items discussed and provide a recommended solution.

There was an earlier discussion by a poster that indicated he was using the state of the plug in stab to determine whether or not to replace the relays. This is incorrect. For a simple review, relays are mechanical devices that use small amounts of current to control large amounts of current - the former through an electromagnet coil which moves large contacts to control the later. What this discussion properly identified is that after 15+ years of operation, the relays wear, and in particular in two areas. First, the armature that supports the high power contacts will weaken, and second the contacts will burn from arcing. The contacts burn because the voltage in our cars is DC, not AC, so the arc that forms when the contacts open will last until the air gap between the contacts no longer can sustain the arc. The weakened armature slows the opening of the contacts, which exacerbates the time of arcing, increasing the damage. Attached below is a photo from my car of the two contact points in a high power relay that controls one of the radiator cooling fans:


As you can see, there is a burn spot in the center of each contact. This burn spot is the place where the high current passes through the contacts, and it represents a resistance in the current path, reducing the voltage to the load. This is the failure that requires relay replacement. If the plug in contacts on the relay where it seats in the panel are overheating, a more serious problem exists in the plug in panel. Replacing the relay will not effect this issue.

So replacing the relays is definitely recommended, as you can’t see the contacts unless you destroy the relay with a cutting tool, and after 15 years it is almost certain many of them are damaged. I also do not recommend replacing the relays with cheap Chinese products like you can find on-line. Fortunately, you don’t have to. I have researched the proper Bosch relays for the F430, and was able to find a supplier who provides all the Bosch relays listed for replacement for $60 plus shipping. No Ferrari tax! The company is RMEUROPEAN.COM and here is a list of the F430 relays and their Bosch replacement. Simple installation took me about an hour (make sure you disconnect the battery!) – the only challenge was the fan relays which require removing part of the frunk liner to reach.

[table]
[TR]
[TD]PSR7, AR1 and AR2 SPST 30A[/TD]

[TD]https://www.rmeuropean.com/Products/0025421119-MFG14.asp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PSR4 and 5 SPDT 30A[/TD]

[TD]BMW Multi Purpose Relay (5-Prong) (Black) 61316919113 - BOSCH[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]N006 X2 (50A) SPST for Fans[/TD]

[TD]Mercedes-Benz Secondary Air Injection Pump Relay (4-Prong) (Black) 002542261928 - HELLA (rmeuropean.com)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PSR 8,9, 10 and PDR 8,9,10 SPST 30A[/TD]

[TD]Mercedes-Benz Horn Relay (4-Prong) (Black) 0025421119 - BOSCH[/TD]
[/TR]
[/table]

Note the photo below of the PSR7 etc. relay – it has gold plated contacts which are excellent for corrosion protection, which the original relays did not have - an additional benefit of the replacement relays:
View attachment 244531

Post installation, in my car the water and oil temperature each ran one division lower. I am guessing that replacing the fan relays increased their speed and hence their cooling efficiency.
why not use modern solid state relays in the proper configuration they would be MUCH more reliable ( albeit more expensive ! ) hella , bosch et all make them ! I have used them !
 

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why not use modern solid state relays in the proper configuration they would be MUCH more reliable ( albeit more expensive ! ) hella , bosch et all make them ! I have used them !
I couldn't find any rated that high (Amps)

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
 

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As an electronics engineer, i can comfortably tell you that nothing is more reliable than a mechanical relay, as long as you replace them (as noted in my discussion) after 14+ years of labor as the contacts will pit. The electronic version will never be as robust. The usual electrical transients, environmental extremes, and mechanical shock that they experience in an automotive environment are all bad for electronics. Cheap solution as noted is simply to replace the relays proactively. Simple job, cheap, and no downside potential. Great reliability improvement, and leaves the car as designed.
 

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As an electronics engineer, i can comfortably tell you that nothing is more reliable than a mechanical relay, as long as you replace them (as noted in my discussion) after 14+ years of labor as the contacts will pit. The electronic version will never be as robust. The usual electrical transients, environmental extremes, and mechanical shock that they experience in an automotive environment are all bad for electronics. Cheap solution as noted is simply to replace the relays proactively. Simple job, cheap, and no downside potential. Great reliability improvement, and leaves the car as designed.
er, Steph van certainly uses solid state in his products and they are orders of magnitude reliable !
 

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er, Steph van certainly uses solid state in his products and they are orders of magnitude reliable !
I think I must respectfully disagree, NASA, and the aerospace industry, et all , certainly use electronic relays w/ great success! I had a professor tell me electronic components are 100X more reliable than mechanical ! ones ! no need for antediluvian thinking unless one really wants to be a purist ! ( which you close w/ ) I think we should avail ourselves of the wonderful , proven technology that is continually developed !
Our cars will be better for it !
would you have us still use lead acid SLI batteries ? in our cars when lithium ( 2nd and 3rd generation ) is uber safe ,40-50 POUNDS less weight , and reliable .?
 

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I guess i should have been more clear

I couldn't find one of 50amp that would slip right into the same slot of the factory relay for f1

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
I admit they require a search to find ! but they do exist ! and if we convince the makers there is a market , they will make other applications as well !
 

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Do they have voltage suppression resistor ..do you actually need them on solid State relays

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er, Steph van certainly uses solid state in his products and they are orders of magnitude reliable !
Seems to me this thread went a bit off course. It was originally about replacing the plug in mini-relays, which is what I was discussing. Stef's products are in boxes which I'm sure are well engineered to address the issues I raised - I have the pump relay from him in my F430. But there is a dongle that plugs into the relay socket. Hence Stef's solution is NOT a plug replacement for a mini-relay as we have been discussing.
 

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I think I must respectfully disagree, NASA, and the aerospace industry, et all , certainly use electronic relays w/ great success! I had a professor tell me electronic components are 100X more reliable than mechanical ! ones ! no need for antediluvian thinking unless one really wants to be a purist ! ( which you close w/ ) I think we should avail ourselves of the wonderful , proven technology that is continually developed !
Our cars will be better for it !
would you have us still use lead acid SLI batteries ? in our cars when lithium ( 2nd and 3rd generation ) is uber safe ,40-50 POUNDS less weight , and reliable .?
As I mentioned above, I agree that properly designed solid state switching devices in the long run will likely be more reliable than a mechanical device. However, this thread was about replacing the mini-relays in the F430 and there are, at least to my knowledge, no plug in solid-state replacement for same with the required power capacity. The $3 Bosch replacement relay that has worked for ~14 years will likely last at least another 14 years and that is a very cost effective and simple preventive upgrade (which I also did to my F430).
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Seems to me this thread went a bit off course. It was originally about replacing the plug in mini-relays, which is what I was discussing. Stef's products are in boxes which I'm sure are well engineered to address the issues I raised - I have the pump relay from him in my F430. But there is a dongle that plugs into the relay socket. Hence Stef's solution is NOT a plug replacement for a mini-relay as we have been discussing.
That's correct, thank you. Just to clarify to others, our eMT ECU (hydraulic pump relay) is far from being a simple on/off solid state relay but is a micro-processor based solution specifically designed to drive the pump motor and allows such motor to start instantly with maximum torque. That's why the pump cycles are shorter, usually 1.5 secs, expands the motor's lifetime and provides ideal hydraulic pressure to the hydraulic system.
 

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I guess i should have been more clear

I couldn't find one of 50amp that would slip right into the same slot of the factory relay for f1

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
ok so IF you did find electronic relay of the proper amp rating you would use it ?
because, ( not to belabor the point ,) you said : "I can comfortably tell you that nothing is more reliable than a mechanical relay, ..........The electronic version will never be as robust. The usual electrical transients, environmental extremes, and mechanical shock that they experience in an automotive environment are all bad for electronics."
er i find that kind of laughable ! the aerospce, and aircraft industry certainly has proven that to not be true ! IME too
I disagree!
Steph van uses top-tier electronic relays and parts in his products (thank you sincerely ! ! ) i realize the F-1 pump is far fr a simple relay , EG it does have many superior components that contribute to it's superlative performance and functioning but it DOES use some form of electronic relay ! It takes the place of a old style mechanical relay .
I hardly think the post went off course, i merely suggested a better alternative ( if one in the proper rating is available ! )
i appreciate the reminder that some parts have a service "life" irregardless of miles or whether it still seems to work ! who knows when it will fail ?
Steph vans brilliant dongle that plugs into the taillights to preclude you being stranded and the transmission unable to shift in case the bulb burns out is a genius example of forward-thinking ! and in a similar vein I think ! =prevent a problem BEFORE it happens!
i have replaced many hoses just because the car is X years old so preventative maintenance is always welcome IMHO thank you !
 
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