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The one you'd take home would be...?

  • Ferrari 430 Scuderia

    Votes: 95 96.0%
  • Porsche 911 GT2 (997)

    Votes: 4 4.0%
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Discussion Starter #1
I read this on Jabbas World, and thought you'd like to enjoy it too, so here it goes!

While this is not a direct comparison (sadly), here are the first impressions on probably two of the most exciting cars to be released this year!


Speed Read:

FIRST IMPRESSIONS

430 Scuderia:
Maybe there's a place for F1 technology on the street after all.

SPECS

* 503-hp 4.3-liter DOHC V8
* 2,975 pounds at the curb
* Integrated differential settings and stability control
* Tunable suspension and transmission

911 GT2:

FIRST IMPRESSIONS

All the speed technology for the track creates a daunting challenge for the street.

SPECS

* Turbocharged 530-hp 3.6-liter flat-6
* Six-speed manual transmission
* Three-mode stability control
* 214-mph top speed

Articles:

430 Scuderia:

At Fiorano With All the F1 Technology You Can Buy

Despite Ferrari's protestations to the contrary, the 2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia is just a stripped-down F430, yet the factory engineers needn't worry about making excuses to justify this car's place in the model range.

It's been built with technology from Ferrari's super-exotic FXX specialty cars, has been tuned by Formula 1 champion Michael Schumacher and laps the Ferrari test track at Fiorano as quickly as the $1 million Enzo.

It's one of those cars that will leave every other carmaker in the world wondering how it will ever catch up with the ever-adventurous enthusiasts in Maranello.

What else do you need to know?

Stripped for Action

The 430 Scuderia is meant to be a track-ready car, the closest thing to the F430 Challenge that's built for Ferrari's worldwide marque racing series.

Just as with a racing car, all of the expense has gone into giving you less weight, not more car. The 430 Scuderia weighs 2,975 pounds, some 221 pounds less than a standard F430 and thus even lighter than a Porsche 911 GT2.

The suspension springs and wheel nuts have been carved from lightweight titanium, and even the shock dampers have been slimmed down by 5 ounces at each corner. Meanwhile, the carpets have been stripped out, replaced by carbon-fiber door panels and bare aluminum floors. It looks a bit raw from behind the wheel, as you glance down and see an enormous exposed weld in the floor next to your foot. It's kind of like a Lotus Elise in that way, but with far more room inside.

There are a few more horsepower on call, as the DOHC 4.3-liter V8 now produces 503 hp at 8,500 rpm, an increase of 20 hp. Meanwhile, torque output has increased to 347 pound-feet at 5,250 rpm, a mere 4 lb-ft more than before. All this has a lot to do with a revised intake system made from carbon fiber, new pistons that increase the compression ratio to 11.75: 1 from 11.3:1, and a lightweight exhaust system.

The V8's electronic package also has been tweaked with a new ion-sensing knock-detection system that's integrated with the spark plug in every cylinder. These sensors can detect the very early onset of detonation, so the engine can run with the maximum amount of ignition advance to take advantage of its taller compression ratio.

The Moment of Truth

The motor crackles to life with a microprocessor-perfect stab of the drive-by-wire throttle and sends a tantalizing, abrupt praapp past the trick exhaust valves and out through the free-flowing exhaust system. Acoustical graphs shown to us by the Ferrari engineers indicate that the Scuderia is actually louder than the F430 Challenge, although the character of the sound isn't as objectionable.

A big storm has blown in from the West and it's been raining, and the idea of cutting loose with a 503-hp Ferrari among the little Fiat Pandas that clog the roads on the streets of Maranello as we head for the countryside sends shivers up our spine.

Somehow we live through the fear and frustration. We feel out the car as much as we dare, and we are surprised that we don't care for the steering as much as we thought we would. It's not as direct as that of the Porsche 911, and you can feel some play on-center (perhaps because of the track-ready alignment). The ratio is quick enough, though, and there's not much shuffling of the wheel required to negotiate hairpins in the hills.

The suspension proves surprisingly compliant in its street setting, certainly far more friendly than that of a Porsche 911 GT3. The chassis is ultra-stiff, yet even a bumpy country road doesn't give you a shock through the lightweight carbon-fiber seat, the sort of thing that curses any extended drive in the GT3. If anything, it's the transmission that shakes you up, as it slams from gear to gear with a deliberate thud if you're deeper into the throttle than about 25 percent.

Moment of Truth II

Fortunately the pavement dries up by the time we get to the 1.8-mile Ferrari test track at Fiorano in the afternoon, and no one seems more relieved than Marc Gene, a longtime F1 test-driver now under contract to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro. It's his job to mind us on the track.

The 430 Scuderia is a showcase for Formula 1 technology. Normally we blanch when we hear such statements, as tangible technology transfer between F1 and the normal world doesn't exist. Or rather it didn't until now. When we see the throttle traces from Marc Gene's demonstration laps at Fiorano, it's clear where the car's electronic differential and stability control systems allow him to use full throttle very early in the corner and then wait for the computers to maximize traction as the car hooks up at the exit.

The Scuderia marries the F430's E-Diff and the 599 Fiorano GTB's F1-Trac traction control system, and then melds them into a single system called E-Diff2. They have been revised and taught to communicate with each other, and this, the engineers insist, has been the most difficult aspect of the car's entire development process. F1 champion Michael Schumacher apparently was instrumental in this.

Just as during our drive on the street, the action of the six-speed automated sequential manual transmission dominates your sense of the car. Here again you'll find F1 technology, as the gearbox swaps cogs in 60 milliseconds compared to the 150-millisecond interval you find in the standard F430. Say "bang-bang" as fast as you can and you'll get the idea. Gene told us that the gearbox is about as quick as a Ferrari F1 car from two years ago, and even the latest F1 car does it only in 30-40 milliseconds.

Clipping Curbs

Thanks to the clever ignition tech for the 4.3-liter V8, the torque curve is fatter between 3,000 and 4,000 rpm, and the improved tractability and lighter chassis weight make the car surprisingly easy to drive, far more relaxing than the road-going F430. When you're at wide-open throttle and the transmission is done changing gears, you feel a fairly constant push from the engine until redline is reached. Ferrari claims 100 kph (62 mph) comes up in 3.6 seconds and 200 kph (124 mph) will arrive in 11.6 seconds on the way to a top speed of 198 mph.

There's some understeer to be found in slow corners (this has a lot to do with the setting you can dial into the E-diff), but it didn't seem to bother test-driver Gene during the laps we rode with him, as he wasn't wrestling with the wheel at all. For us, the setup felt better on the track than the road, and there's good steering feel as soon as you dial in about a quarter turn, as though there's some toe-out in the front alignment, and you're able to make minute corrections that don't seem possible on the street.

Using all the electronics to help the car carve the neatest, fastest lines through the corners, you feel magically talented as the electronics help you drive faster rather than simply avert disaster when you make a mistake. And yes, it is possible to hold a slide, as the ECU holds your hand.

Braking potential is limited only by the adhesion of the fat Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires, 235/35ZR19s in front and 285/35ZR19s in the rear, because the ceramic-composite brake rotors are up to the task, as you can see by the 15.7-inch front rotors with six-piston calipers. The brakes begin to grumble after about three laps and become difficult to modulate, which is something we've never noticed in Porsche's ceramic brakes.

Available in Stores Near You

Some 250 examples of the 2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia are scheduled to arrive in the U.S. next spring, and no pricing has been announced. Ferrari says it expects buyers of the 430 Scuderia to spend about 15 percent of their time in the car driving in track events, and it also believes most buyers will probably already own one or two Ferraris.

When you look at all the improvements made to the 2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia, it's all legit stuff, although whether most buyers will make much use of it might be debatable.

We actually talked to a Ferrari engineer about this. We told him that most American buyers will probably opt for the Scuderia just to get the loud exhaust, plus the unique racing stripes down the middle of the bodywork. He laughed and said that customers in Europe tend to be more serious and often come to the factory looking for more performance, which is one reason the car has been built.

Here's the bottom line: If you see a guy driving a 430 Scuderia into valet parking, he's probably a poseur; but if a guy shows up at a track day in the pit stall next to you with one, then you'd better have something really, really fast or he's going to blow by you without breaking a sweat.

Porsche 911 GT2:

Finding 205 mph on the Autobahn With 530 Horsepower

The A1 autobahn, somewhere north of Bremen, Germany. We're at the wheel of the 2008 Porsche 911 GT2.

At an indicated 186 mph — almost 3.5 miles per minute — the surrounding countryside blurs into one constant stream. The slap of the tires against the expansion joints in the concrete road surface combines with the steady rush of the wind pouring over the car's curved profile. Yet even together they can't overcome the deep roar of the engine, which is still pulling hard some 800 rpm shy of its electronic cut-out at the redline of 6,800 rpm.

Long sweeping curves in the road ahead tighten in intensity and our heart rate races. We can feel the front end of the car lifting as it fights to control the huge aerodynamic forces. Yet the new 2008 Porsche 911 GT2 manages to track better at such extreme velocities than any other road-going 911 thanks to bodywork developed for the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

It's uniquely challenging but wonderfully addictive. And thanks to Germany's insistence that speed — no matter how outrageous — is the right of each and every road user, all this is completely legal.

Velocity Max

Officially the GT2 reaches a top speed of 215 mph, making it the fastest series production 911 ever unleashed for the road. "With speedometer error factored in, that's an indicated 214 mph," explains Alan Lewin, the new car's project boss.

We're ultimately 10 mph short of this at an eye-widening 205 mph as the sign to Oldenburg flashes by to our left. We've managed to better the 193-mph top speed of the Porsche 911 Turbo, with which this latest Porsche shares so much of its mechanical package. More than just 15 mph in top speed separates these two cars, however, as they are very different in character.

The four-wheel-drive 911 Turbo goes about its business with almost clinical efficiency, insulating the driver with technological wizardry in a way that has led many to describe this car as being too sophisticated for its own good.

The rear-wheel-drive GT2, on the other hand, relies on compelling rawness to stamp the driving experience with its own personality, challenging those behind the wheel to use its immense reserve of performance.

Extreme Aerodynamics

While the GT2 borrows heavily from the Turbo in terms of its fundamental appearance, there are a number of detailed styling changes that serve to set it apart, all of which, Lewin tells us, have to do with airflow management.

The changes begin with a heavily revised front bumper with sizable outer air ducts that's also punctuated on each side by a row of eight LEDs. The central duct has also been enlarged to ensure more cool air finds its way to the trio of front-mounted radiators, a pair of air-conditioning condensers and the front brakes.

Porsche claims cooling efficiency has been improved, allowing the GT2 to retain the same-size radiators as the Turbo despite its greater power output. In addition, the GT2 has an oil-to-water heat exchanger for the gearbox (the 911 Turbo has an air-to-air cooler for this purpose). The front aero splitter has been strengthened to resist underbody airflow at extreme speed and thus reduce aerodynamic lift.

The rear wing is without a doubt the most defining visual feature of the new car, just as it's been for every GT2 since the racetrack original appeared in 1995. Fixed to the engine lid, it once again boasts a twin-element design with ram-air ducts to help the engine breathe deeply at speed. Below the wing, there's a heavily revised bumper that features vents to extract hot air from the engine bay.

Although the GT2 has a lower ride height than the 911 Turbo, its aerodynamic addenda results in a slightly higher drag coefficient — 0.32 Cd against 0.31 Cd. But compared to the meager 35 pounds of downforce the 911 Turbo develops at 200 kph (124 mph), the GT2 registers 20 pounds of downforce over the front wheels and 64 pounds over the rear at the same speed. This is comforting to know when you've got the GT2 wound up in 6th gear on a deserted German autobahn, believe us.

A Soul With Six Cylinders

The engine of the GT2 shares its broad specification with the 911 Turbo, but internal tweaks provide a small but important edge in performance.

Capacity of the horizontally opposed six-cylinder remains 3.6 liters, but the combination of the latest Borg-Warner variable-geometry turbochargers making 20 psi of boost and a new variable inlet manifold together help increase power to 530 horsepower at 6,500 rpm, 47 hp more than the 911 Turbo.

The GT2 engine also produces 501 pound-feet of torque, an improvement of 44 lb-ft. More important is the fact that this torque is produced all the way from 2,200 rpm to 4,500 rpm. This makes the power delivery extraordinarily consistent across the rev range, as phenomenal flexibility combines with monumental top-end thrust. The power only begins to wane in intensity shortly before the ignition is retarded at 6,800 rpm.

Feel the Power

On one lonely strip of autobahn we slotted the GT2 into 6th gear at just 1,000 rpm. With the speedometer indicating 50 kph (30 mph), we put the pedal on the floor mat and the car surged ahead without any unruliness until we'd broken 300 kph (186 mph). There's no discernible lag as the turbochargers spool up to maximum boost; just one smooth, linear and titanic seam of energy. You need to think hard about whether it is strictly necessary to call up that last couple of thousand revs in lower gears. Most of the time, it isn't.

The GT2's comparatively light curb weight of 3,175 pounds heightens your impression of speed, a useful reduction of the Turbo's curb weight of 3,483 pounds by 308 pounds. Then there's the fact that the power is being channeled to just the rear wheels, which makes you question whether even fleeting moments of full throttle are indeed prudent on public roads.

This is the first GT2 to get three-mode stability control and a limited-slip differential as standard equipment, yet wheelspin is not exactly an uncommon commodity when you're out to explore this car's limits. At 3.7 seconds, its acceleration to 100 kph (62 mph) is 0.2 second quicker than the 911 Turbo and 0.3 second quicker than the previous-generation GT2. The new car's headline performance number is its acceleration to 100 mph — just 7.4 seconds.

The revs build so suddenly in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears that you always have to be at the ready to grab the next gear before the electronic cut-out at redline surprises you. It's only when you get to 4th that it all becomes less frenzied, though even then the acceleration remains strong.

More Than Speed

Sheer speed is only part of the thrill, though. The latest 911 Turbo with its new fast-acting, clutch-type center differential and all-wheel drive is very much foolproof when it comes to fast driving. The GT2, on the other hand, is very much from the old school — tail happy and ready to punish those who fail to heed the warning signs.

Accelerate hard out of even a moderately fast corner in a lower gear and the GT2 will spin its rear wheels almost on demand. Fortunately the steering is more alert than in the Turbo, so winding on steering lock in a timely fashion keeps the GT2 under control.

The three-mode stability control intervenes much later than you'll find for other models of the 911, and it cleverly provides separate switches to completely disengage both the stability and traction functions. While on the subject of chassis electronics, it's worth mentioning that the stability control's electronics intervene viciously as soon as you try to left-foot brake — unsettling behavior at best and downright dangerous at worst.

In the right hands, the GT2's potential is phenomenal. Former world rally champion Walter Rohrl has lapped the Nürburgring in 7 minutes 32 seconds, a full 14 seconds faster than the previous GT2.

The Comfort Quotient

Although the GT2 has been built for speed, not comfort, the ride quality is acceptable given the lack of compliance afforded by its low-profile Michelin Pilot Sport tires, 235/35R19s in front and 325/30R19s in the rear. Like the Turbo, the GT2 gets Porsche's active suspension that allows you to alter the damping in two predetermined stages.

There's an overall intensity to the ride that is just not apparent in the Turbo, but at the same time the GT2 still manages to swallow nasty ridges in the pavement without sending you off your line through the corner. That said, only a masochist would consider the sport mode on public roads. Developed specifically for track use, you have to fight the wheel to keep the GT2 pointed exactly where you want it, and even the smallest of surface imperfections makes it feel nervous.

If you get into trouble, the braking power is colossal. The GT2 has Porsche's carbon-ceramic rotors as standard equipment, measuring 15.0 inches in front and 13.4 inches in the rear. Eight-piston calipers grab the front rotors, while four-piston calipers do the job in the rear.

Porsche tells us that the brakes play a crucial role in helping the GT2 accelerate from zero to 186 mph and then back to zero again in just 40 seconds. Even more impressive is the ability of the brake package to resist fade. In fact, you could argue that the GT2 stops even better than it goes.

Caution, Trained Professionals Only

Is this car wild? Certainly. Even rally ace Walter Rohrl admits that it's not for everybody. And its price of $191,700 when it goes on sale this November makes it even more of a challenge.

Yet the 2008 Porsche 911 GT2 can also be hugely rewarding in the right conditions. No, we can't imagine driving it down an unfamiliar country road in the rain at night. It's just too intimidating. But it is a car that is meant for the track, a huge driving challenge that is nevertheless brought within reach by a carefully tuned array of technology.

As Porsche's Alan Lewin points out, "It's a car for those who want to be able to take the car to its limits on their own without feeling impeded by any electronic features."
 

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Of course, this is a Ferrari forum so the results of this poll are not surprising. But still, I find it curious to think that other people would consider the Porsche to be more desirable (note: I said more desirable, not better). I think it is an awesome car, but just think what happens in four years time. The 997 GT2 will be forgotten and the next GT2 will have come along. The Ferrari (any Ferrari) is just so much more unique (which justifies its higher price tag, IMO). Each one of them is only built for a limited time and doesn't return in a newer form (possible exception the 328 as a new version of the 308).

For instance, the 360 Stradale is still awesome, and the 430 Scuderia doesn't detract from that. If Ferrari kept releasing variations on the same tune, they would be a lot less desirable.

Just my opinion, of course. Thoughts?


Onno



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Of course, this is a Ferrari forum so the results of this poll are not surprising. But still, I find it curious to think that other people would consider the Porsche to be more desirable (note: I said more desirable, not better). I think it is an awesome car, but just think what happens in four years time. The 997 GT2 will be forgotten and the next GT2 will have come along. The Ferrari (any Ferrari) is just so much more unique (which justifies its higher price tag, IMO). Each one of them is only built for a limited time and doesn't return in a newer form (possible exception the 328 as a new version of the 308).

For instance, the 360 Stradale is still awesome, and the 430 Scuderia doesn't detract from that. If Ferrari kept releasing variations on the same tune, they would be a lot less desirable.

Just my opinion, of course. Thoughts?


Onno
Onno, I agree that a Ferrari is more desirable than a 911.
Not sure about Ferrari not upgrading models;)
As you said, 308/328

But how about?
Testarossa/512TR/F512M
365/512/512i Boxers
550/575
 

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I reckon the new 430 Scuderia Ferrari would sound better:rolleyes:
than the 9111 GT2, BUT I'm not sure if it would beat it in speed that easily....
 

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Onno, I agree that a Ferrari is more desirable than a 911.
Not sure about Ferrari not upgrading models;)
As you said, 308/328

But how about?
Testarossa/512TR/F512M
365/512/512i Boxers
550/575
Yep - you're right. But aren't they all the same model in everybody's mind (apart from the minds of lucky sods like Boxer who have more than boxer for instance)? In which case, it goes to prove my point - you need to be releasing new designs to keep them desirable.


Onno



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I agree with you Onno, car manufacturers need to upgrade designs to keep them fresh. The 911 series cars have been more or less the same since the time of Christ and are very boring now.
I have a love/hate relationship with them. I hate them because they are so boring, common, unchanged, every wannabe aspires to own one. But I love them because they are reliable, incredibly strong, perfect design (2+2 rear engined), aerodynamic, powerful.
Every couple of months I have a mental battle never quite deciding whether I should buy a 996 C4 as a daily driver. It would never replace my 328 as a weekend toy, but a Porsche does make great sense as a daily driver. However, I then remind myself of all the reasons why I don't like 911's, and decide to keep my Audi for a bit longer. I dare say I will buy a 911 at some point in the future, and maybe then I'll be better qualified to make a judgement.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Archie, I'm kind of like you, but I love the 911 much more than I hate them

I don't like the 996 generation, but I love the 993, and really like the new 997s

I really love this 997 GT2, but the 430 Scuderia has a warm passion all over it that the cold racing mind behind the Porsche schield just doesn't have

I think the 911 are like machine guns: fun, nice piece of engineering, but very cold

the Ferraris are kind of like a musical instrument, they win you over with their grace rather than their power
 

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Archie, I'm kind of like you, but I love the 911 much more than I hate them

I don't like the 996 generation, but I love the 993, and really like the new 997s
I agree with the 993 and 997, but the problem I have is I need a daily driver and I'd be worried that a 993 might be a bit too old and need expensive work doing to it. The 997 is too expensive and out of my price range unless I sell my 328:eek:
 

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I voted for the 430 Scuderia, but I have to admit, other than my brother's Boxster (nice car, but where's the engine?), I've only been in a Porsche twice in my life. I'm sure they are very great to drive, and although the basic body design is VERY old, I still find the GT2, GT3, etc. good looking. Would never knock anyone for wanting to own one, but the last 911-style Porsche I was in sounded kind of like a VW Beetle to me, and they have a very efficient but mass-produced look and feel to them (nice car, but where's the soul?).

Rick
 

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I agree with the 993 and 997, but the problem I have is I need a daily driver and I'd be worried that a 993 might be a bit too old and need expensive work doing to it. The 997 is too expensive and out of my price range unless I sell my 328:eek:
Archie, Keep the Audi. I bought a 993 TT as a daily driver earlier this year and sold it 6 months later.
 

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Wow. Not one person voted for the Porsche. Well, it is a Ferrari site. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Pete, even in Jabbas World the 430 Scuderia is winning, 43 to 22

and that´s no Ferrari site! many many Porsche fans there

either way, it seems to me that the rival of the 430 Scuderia should be the GT3 RS, not the GT2

if the GT2 is getting it´s (beetle) but kicked, imagine if we were comparing the 430 Scuderia with the GT3 hehehehehehe

FORZA!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Archie, Keep the Audi. I bought a 993 TT as a daily driver earlier this year and sold it 6 months later.
Boxer, did you have reliability problems with your 993 Turbo?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
It would have been interesting to see what the split would be if the choice included a Gallardo Superlegera
Archie, maybe it´s time to start a poll with the 430 Scuderia vs 911 GT3 RS vs Gallardo Superleggera vs V8 Vantage N24

let´s see how´s the light weight champion!
 

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Great idea, but based on the results of the GT2 911, I'd leave it out, and the AM vantage V8 N24 didn't do too well in the Top Gear review.
Should be a straight fight between the Lambo and the Scuderia, which could be very interesting. Personally, I prefer the look of the Gallardo, but I'm never going to find out how either drives and handles.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Great idea, but based on the results of the GT2 911, I'd leave it out, and the AM vantage V8 N24 didn't do too well in the Top Gear review.
Should be a straight fight between the Lambo and the Scuderia, which could be very interesting. Personally, I prefer the look of the Gallardo, but I'm never going to find out how either drives and handles.
well, we should still leave the options open on the poll hehehehe it´s always nice to see Ferrari beating the others =D

I think the standart Gallardo looks better than the standart F430, but the Scuderia is better looking than any other car

IMO, the Scuderia brought back the magic to Ferrari, that extra factor that was missing since the F355
 

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Very interesting discussion...Scuderia versus GT 2.

Interestingly nobody seems to consider the totally different engine technology between the natural aspirated Scuderia and the Turbo loaded GT2 ?! These are different engine technologies.
It's like comparing the Scuderias acceleration times from 0 -200Kmp's (11.6) to those of the F40 (around 11s. I would guess, from 20 years ago!)

Having "fighted" my Stradale on normal track events in Monza and Spa against the many Porsche's GT2/GT3 and so on I must admit (besides being a lousy driver:) ) that the Porsche's have also some advantages.

1. They normally have a back wing, which creates much better downforce on fast corners that a Stradale (I would expect this to be roughly the same with the Scuderia)

2. The traction of a GT2 (besides all the electronic advantages of the Scuderia) is probably better balanced on the GT2's 325 size back tires against the Scuderias 285 (Why is this size again, like the Stradale, so small ??)

3. Buying my Stradale in late 2004, I had to wait for almost 18 month to receive meaningful tires (they where generally equipped with the Bridgestone "asymettrico" rain tyre by factory), no comparison to the Michelin Pilot sport of the Porsche's, where every housewife is able to get meaningful material.

There is no question that the Scuderia is the more attractive, more desirable and rarer car after all. On the other hand we may have to admit that marketing wise Ferrari probably has a tendency to overstretch the truth slightly while with Porsche you can trust written comments for granted.

I have driven many different old and new Ferraris and I love(d) them all. The passion, the spirit, the history..... nothing else will hold up and can match. Consequently I ordered the Scuderia a couple of month ago.
But I also must admit that as a daily driver I use a 911 Turbo 997. Just this last weekend I went to a Ski resort here in Switzerland with my 4 wheel drive Turbo. 3 inches of fresh snow on the street, my skis on the roof, the heated seats below my buttocks and passing these Mercedes, BMW's and Touaregs is also not a to be missed winter experience. Even as a Ferrari "nut's" I must admit that Porsche is building fantastic cars. Their commercial success speaks for itself.
 
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