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In addition to Terry's post, the E-Diff on the F1 is actuated using the F1 hydraulics while on the manual, it uses the brake fluid with a hose coming directly from the front master cylinder.
360 F1 Conversion to 6spd
360
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Hi Guys, thanks for the 430 info. I will take that plunge in a few months. Stef, no I didn't get a real drive yet. I have moved it, and it does that fine, but I have yet to wind it up in gear, although I have every confidence all is well. I am in NJ and the weather just stinks. The ice just cleared in the last day, and another storm is coming later tonight. Out of boredom, and impatience, I started my caliper paint job, so my car has no brakes at the moment!!
Anyway for those that asked, this conversion saved 26 lbs, not weighing the F1 fluid, which I think will be a "wash" being additional brake fluid had to be added instead. So 26 pounds saving there, but the exhaust save just a tick under 25 lbs, so combined I saved near 51 lbs. But there is more, I bought titanium lugs too, so a pound or 2 there and we are up to a diet that net a 53 lb loss!!!!
Also, for the other people who asked, I am certain that this can be done on a CS. The one item that may require extra work is the center tunnel. I am not sure if the manual shifter well nuts are in place. The center tunnel is different between a 360 and a CS, and I am not certain what makes up the difference, but aligning the shifter and adding well nuts is an easy task. Of coarse the console will need to be a 360 style or modded heavily as the CS is quite different there. The pedal box is the same, the shifter cable hole is present. The transmission uses a different part number, but the shift components are the same. The trans difference may be gearing, or heavy duty, but the parts necessary are the same. So yes, the CS can be done almost as easily as a 360.
I am sorry that I can't yet post driving impressions, but the Northeast weather is horrible in the winter. I promise to report all the details as soon as I get them.
My last bit of the conversion is sending my console out to have the parameters set. I asked my local dealer to do this ( I wanted to just drop the gauge cluster off) but this makes them unsure if they can do it. That certainly does not inspire confidence in me. Francochamps in Cali said they can do it no problem. Quite reasonable too. He understood what I needed immediatly and did not hesitate. Anyone ever deal with them?
Thanks everyone for the nice comments, great input, and your interest!! It really makes the project more rewarding!!!
Rich
Anyway for those that asked, this conversion saved 26 lbs, not weighing the F1 fluid, which I think will be a "wash" being additional brake fluid had to be added instead. So 26 pounds saving there, but the exhaust save just a tick under 25 lbs, so combined I saved near 51 lbs. But there is more, I bought titanium lugs too, so a pound or 2 there and we are up to a diet that net a 53 lb loss!!!!
Also, for the other people who asked, I am certain that this can be done on a CS. The one item that may require extra work is the center tunnel. I am not sure if the manual shifter well nuts are in place. The center tunnel is different between a 360 and a CS, and I am not certain what makes up the difference, but aligning the shifter and adding well nuts is an easy task. Of coarse the console will need to be a 360 style or modded heavily as the CS is quite different there. The pedal box is the same, the shifter cable hole is present. The transmission uses a different part number, but the shift components are the same. The trans difference may be gearing, or heavy duty, but the parts necessary are the same. So yes, the CS can be done almost as easily as a 360.
I am sorry that I can't yet post driving impressions, but the Northeast weather is horrible in the winter. I promise to report all the details as soon as I get them.
My last bit of the conversion is sending my console out to have the parameters set. I asked my local dealer to do this ( I wanted to just drop the gauge cluster off) but this makes them unsure if they can do it. That certainly does not inspire confidence in me. Francochamps in Cali said they can do it no problem. Quite reasonable too. He understood what I needed immediatly and did not hesitate. Anyone ever deal with them?
Thanks everyone for the nice comments, great input, and your interest!! It really makes the project more rewarding!!!
Rich
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This opens up a whole new perspective making an F430 F1 or an F360 F1 very interesting as an additional car. 10.000$ for a shop to do the conversion with all new parts should be enough?
Is this possible on an F 355 F1 as well?
Good luck, very interested to hear about test drive, photos, etc.:thumbsup:
Is this possible on an F 355 F1 as well?
Good luck, very interested to hear about test drive, photos, etc.:thumbsup:
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Ok, I was just figuring out min and max. In my theoretical case it would have to be the shop performing the surgery but I would definitely look for used parts to keep costs down.
I think it's a marvellous intervention. Retaining the parts you can always swap back to original or have Ferrari update the records for the conversion carried out, making both ways original.:thumbsup:
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I simply removed them, and bought a manual trans steering column cover ( the plastic upper and lower) which does not have the "cut outs" for the paddles.
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WOW! That is quite an undertaking considering the scarcity of parts needed. in the good old days I thought nothing of installing a Detroit Racing Co. Hydramatic in my Allard. No electronics etc.
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Hello all . I have really been taking my time in finishing this job due to the bad northeast winter. I figure if I drag the repair out, I will not feel like I am missing as much. I had to replace the shifter rod ( shown in a different thread) and I had a few dash issues due to the fact that the car was born an F1.
Just for the knowledge base, the F1 and Manual gauge cluster are identical parts. The difference in them is the way they are configured. If you look at the parts table, you will see one part number.
Anyway one of the items on my wish list while doing this conversion was I did not want to have to bring it to the dealer for anything related to the conversion. I actually was looking at one point to buy an SD2 machine to avoid the dealer. That is a 10-15k purchase if you can find one. Anyway, I never did find one. What I did find is in Costa Mesa California a company called FIA.
I never spoke directly to Rod Drew, but I believe he was the person who reconfigured my dash.
I called and described what I needed and was told to send it. So I packed it up nice, insured it for its value ( 4000 usd) and Fedexed it to FIA.
They received it Friday, I got it back Tuesday. I was told the gauge reconfigure is completely and easily reversible.
Anyway, when I got it back, I was anxious to put it in. One of my peeves was the fact that my green " check ok" never worked after the conversion. I also had a trans failure light, and the gear indicator dispayed a dash (-).
As you can see, my gauge cluster's visit to FIA cured that all. I took some pix to show everyone, but the pix actually helped me more than anyone. My fuel gauge was lower than I remembered it being and was intermittent. I just scratched my head and went on to the next figuring I needed fuel. When I reviewed the pix, I noticed the plug on the right was not fully seated, so again the cluster came out and sure enough it was not seated. A slight push and an audible click and no more fuel issue!!!
As you can see no more trans failure light, and I got my check ok back!! Also, I still have not had to visit the dealer!!!
As soon as the salt is washed off the street, I can take a proper test ride!!!
Just for the knowledge base, the F1 and Manual gauge cluster are identical parts. The difference in them is the way they are configured. If you look at the parts table, you will see one part number.
Anyway one of the items on my wish list while doing this conversion was I did not want to have to bring it to the dealer for anything related to the conversion. I actually was looking at one point to buy an SD2 machine to avoid the dealer. That is a 10-15k purchase if you can find one. Anyway, I never did find one. What I did find is in Costa Mesa California a company called FIA.
I never spoke directly to Rod Drew, but I believe he was the person who reconfigured my dash.
I called and described what I needed and was told to send it. So I packed it up nice, insured it for its value ( 4000 usd) and Fedexed it to FIA.
They received it Friday, I got it back Tuesday. I was told the gauge reconfigure is completely and easily reversible.
Anyway, when I got it back, I was anxious to put it in. One of my peeves was the fact that my green " check ok" never worked after the conversion. I also had a trans failure light, and the gear indicator dispayed a dash (-).
As you can see, my gauge cluster's visit to FIA cured that all. I took some pix to show everyone, but the pix actually helped me more than anyone. My fuel gauge was lower than I remembered it being and was intermittent. I just scratched my head and went on to the next figuring I needed fuel. When I reviewed the pix, I noticed the plug on the right was not fully seated, so again the cluster came out and sure enough it was not seated. A slight push and an audible click and no more fuel issue!!!
As you can see no more trans failure light, and I got my check ok back!! Also, I still have not had to visit the dealer!!!
As soon as the salt is washed off the street, I can take a proper test ride!!!
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This picture shows the car directly after self check, then the second on is it running. No trans failure light ( that would be a red light in the speedo visible earlier in this thread) and no dash in the gear indicator window.
I was told by a few fellow lifers that I could have retained my gear indicator window, and I spent a lot of time checking into this. They are correct, but I felt it was a bit overkill with a gated shifter. This would not be easy, as the sensors that sense gear position would have to be fitted to the manual actuator assembly. It currently has no provisions for such. After comparing, I realized this can be done, but like I said I felt it not worth the effort. I left it as the factory would have.
Also, I included a picture of my new pin straight shifter!!! After I removed the bent one, and installed the brand new one, I was able to straighten the bent one, but what the heck, the new one was already in. I am surprised I was able to straighten it as it is made of stainless, and being an alloy, it can be brittle. I do however know for certain if I did not have the brand new part first, the bent one would have snapped. That is just how it works!!!
As soon as I am able to give my car a proper test drive, I will give a report on my driving impressions as a gated. I will also report on the new exhaust and the new motronics.
The one good thing about the 360 getting a bit older is it gives people the freedom to experiment. My car was not inexpensive, but I promise if this was 2001, and I just payed near a 1/4 million ( yes 360's did trade near that when current) I would be less inclined to alter it so dramatically.
Thanks for everyones interest!!!!
Rich
I was told by a few fellow lifers that I could have retained my gear indicator window, and I spent a lot of time checking into this. They are correct, but I felt it was a bit overkill with a gated shifter. This would not be easy, as the sensors that sense gear position would have to be fitted to the manual actuator assembly. It currently has no provisions for such. After comparing, I realized this can be done, but like I said I felt it not worth the effort. I left it as the factory would have.
Also, I included a picture of my new pin straight shifter!!! After I removed the bent one, and installed the brand new one, I was able to straighten the bent one, but what the heck, the new one was already in. I am surprised I was able to straighten it as it is made of stainless, and being an alloy, it can be brittle. I do however know for certain if I did not have the brand new part first, the bent one would have snapped. That is just how it works!!!
As soon as I am able to give my car a proper test drive, I will give a report on my driving impressions as a gated. I will also report on the new exhaust and the new motronics.
The one good thing about the 360 getting a bit older is it gives people the freedom to experiment. My car was not inexpensive, but I promise if this was 2001, and I just payed near a 1/4 million ( yes 360's did trade near that when current) I would be less inclined to alter it so dramatically.
Thanks for everyones interest!!!!
Rich
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Excellent update Rich! :thumbsup: Good to read that FIA reconfigured the instrument panel ECU to a manual car. Now all is ready for a test drive 
Regarding the gear number display, I've been studying quite a bit this subject and prototyped a working solution. It's far from being straight forward I must say. An additional ECU is needed using an MCU that gets the signals of the gear positioning sensors and send out the gear number data on the Can Bus in a specific binary format that only the instrument panel ECU will understand. It's the only way to make the display showing gear numbers. While working on this subject, I discovered that this display can show some other useful diagnostic information.
I hope that the roads will be clear soon for a good test drive. I eventually had a drive today after 3 months stuck in my garage with so much snow all around. Ahhh, it's always such a pleasure to drive a manual car again. Even after 3 months, my car shifted immediately all the gears just like butter!
Regarding the gear number display, I've been studying quite a bit this subject and prototyped a working solution. It's far from being straight forward I must say. An additional ECU is needed using an MCU that gets the signals of the gear positioning sensors and send out the gear number data on the Can Bus in a specific binary format that only the instrument panel ECU will understand. It's the only way to make the display showing gear numbers. While working on this subject, I discovered that this display can show some other useful diagnostic information.I hope that the roads will be clear soon for a good test drive. I eventually had a drive today after 3 months stuck in my garage with so much snow all around. Ahhh, it's always such a pleasure to drive a manual car again
. Even after 3 months, my car shifted immediately all the gears just like butter!
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Hello Stef, actually you are one of the people that got me on the gear indicator research. It is certainly do-able, but not easy. I am very curious what other findings you have on this. I love this stuff, and you come up with some really good stuff, so please share your findings as they develop.
Yes Taz, I think you may be the person who put me on to Rod Drew, either directly, or thru one of your posts. I don't remember, but I am glad I sent my cluster there. Saved me a trip to the dealer!! Actually my dealer was a bit confused as to what I needed done, and Rod understood right away. The fact that he said he could do it without hesitation gave me confidence in him and FAI.
Brian, I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. If they are specific to a manual conversion on a 360, this may be a good place to post it, as I was hoping this thread may be used as a future reference for anyone interested in undertaking this job. If it is considerably off topic, then just PM me. I am glad to help.
Regards
Rich
Yes Taz, I think you may be the person who put me on to Rod Drew, either directly, or thru one of your posts. I don't remember, but I am glad I sent my cluster there. Saved me a trip to the dealer!! Actually my dealer was a bit confused as to what I needed done, and Rod understood right away. The fact that he said he could do it without hesitation gave me confidence in him and FAI.
Brian, I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. If they are specific to a manual conversion on a 360, this may be a good place to post it, as I was hoping this thread may be used as a future reference for anyone interested in undertaking this job. If it is considerably off topic, then just PM me. I am glad to help.
Regards
Rich
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113 Posts
Hello all, the New Jersey fall/winter has been brutal this year. I started this job just around hurricane Sandy, and just will now consider this complete. I got tired of waiting for a perfect day, so with a little snow still around, I decided to test it out. It started, as it should, and being it was near 25F out, I gave it a bit of time to warm up prior to moving it. As you can see, there is still some snow around. It snowed yesterday too and will again tomorrow, so I am glad I slipped in one ride. I did not push it at all, due to the tires will not grip in this weather unless thoroughly warmed. I have been down that road in my Viper on Christmas eve several years ago. My neighbor still looks at me funny as he watched me going sideways down the block with my Santa Claus hat on. It was like I was in a drifting competition. I really didn't try to get it so crossed up. Anyway, as a manual the first thing I noticed was a different throttle response. If you read back, you will see I changed the Motronics to manuals, while also chaning to the CS type exhaust. I think both items contribute to the "snappy" throttle. The sound from the new exhaust is nice. It is better than stock, IMO, but the difference from stock is not as noticible as a Tubi or Capristo. Either way, I like it better than the tremondous and quiet stock muffler.
The second thing I noticed, is that during take off, the car no longer wants to "jerk". With the F1, I had to carefully apply the pedal to take off smoothly, if I was careless, it would buck. I am not sure if the PIS was set wrong, or if it was my technique, but it used to buck. No longer, I can take off as well as I expect I should. The gear changes are clean and positive. The gated shifter is very fine compared to most other cars. There is nothing vague about it. Now that I have seen the inner workings, I feel the Ferrari shifter assembly is superior to other manual shift arrangements. The cable operated mechanism allows the motor to "torque over" without the fear of side pressure on the shifter. In the Viper, the motor moves a lot due to the tremendous torque the motor makes. Many people have hit 2nd, while intending to hit 4th. In 4th you are well into triple digit speed. To accomodate this you have to flip your hand and position your arm. No such tricks are needed in the Ferrari.
The pedal placement makes heel/toe easy. I can see this was thought of when designing this car.
I feel the "personality" of the car has changed dramatically. I like it. I must say, the F1 arrangement is a terrific item. It is a clever piece of engineering. If I did a lot of track events, the F1 would probably be best.
Being my free time is limited, I want to enjoy my drives the best I can. I feel the gated manual allows me to be a little more involved. I will say, I now like this car better than when it had the F1.At most speeds, I can shift faster than the F1. Once past say 6000 rpm, that changes. The F1 is simply faster at high revs. I have done a few things to personalize it while I was at it. Like the yellow calipers and matching ignition key, tit wheel lugs and a steering wheel on order. I spoke with Rod from FAI, and he said he can program my gauge cluster back the way it was as an F1 as easily as he made it for a manual.
So, now that this is done, and I have a summer of gated shifts ahead, was it worth it? I feel it was, as I longed for a 3 pedal arrangement. I felt the conversion had less drama than selling my car, and finding a similar one with 3 pedals. I however have the ability to do more than 95% of the work myself, actually, the only thing outsourced was the gauge reprogram.
If someone were to take this on with buying all new parts for the conversion, and paying an hourly shop rate to do the work, it simply would not make sense. The cost would be prohibitive.
However, being able to hunt up good used assemblies, and doing my own work, the cost was not bad. If I were inclined, I could offset a big chunk of it by selling my F1 assemblies that I removed. This conversion is easily and completely reversible, which gave me peace of mind.
In closing I want to thank Eric, Taz and Stef, who gave valueable input. Without Eric, I would not have even attempted this.
I also want to thank everyone who had an interest in this project. It actually helped keep me motivated. I have read many times this "could not be done". I needed to find out for myself. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Uhh, Bon Jour!
Kind Regards
Rich
The second thing I noticed, is that during take off, the car no longer wants to "jerk". With the F1, I had to carefully apply the pedal to take off smoothly, if I was careless, it would buck. I am not sure if the PIS was set wrong, or if it was my technique, but it used to buck. No longer, I can take off as well as I expect I should. The gear changes are clean and positive. The gated shifter is very fine compared to most other cars. There is nothing vague about it. Now that I have seen the inner workings, I feel the Ferrari shifter assembly is superior to other manual shift arrangements. The cable operated mechanism allows the motor to "torque over" without the fear of side pressure on the shifter. In the Viper, the motor moves a lot due to the tremendous torque the motor makes. Many people have hit 2nd, while intending to hit 4th. In 4th you are well into triple digit speed. To accomodate this you have to flip your hand and position your arm. No such tricks are needed in the Ferrari.
The pedal placement makes heel/toe easy. I can see this was thought of when designing this car.
I feel the "personality" of the car has changed dramatically. I like it. I must say, the F1 arrangement is a terrific item. It is a clever piece of engineering. If I did a lot of track events, the F1 would probably be best.
Being my free time is limited, I want to enjoy my drives the best I can. I feel the gated manual allows me to be a little more involved. I will say, I now like this car better than when it had the F1.At most speeds, I can shift faster than the F1. Once past say 6000 rpm, that changes. The F1 is simply faster at high revs. I have done a few things to personalize it while I was at it. Like the yellow calipers and matching ignition key, tit wheel lugs and a steering wheel on order. I spoke with Rod from FAI, and he said he can program my gauge cluster back the way it was as an F1 as easily as he made it for a manual.
So, now that this is done, and I have a summer of gated shifts ahead, was it worth it? I feel it was, as I longed for a 3 pedal arrangement. I felt the conversion had less drama than selling my car, and finding a similar one with 3 pedals. I however have the ability to do more than 95% of the work myself, actually, the only thing outsourced was the gauge reprogram.
If someone were to take this on with buying all new parts for the conversion, and paying an hourly shop rate to do the work, it simply would not make sense. The cost would be prohibitive.
However, being able to hunt up good used assemblies, and doing my own work, the cost was not bad. If I were inclined, I could offset a big chunk of it by selling my F1 assemblies that I removed. This conversion is easily and completely reversible, which gave me peace of mind.
In closing I want to thank Eric, Taz and Stef, who gave valueable input. Without Eric, I would not have even attempted this.
I also want to thank everyone who had an interest in this project. It actually helped keep me motivated. I have read many times this "could not be done". I needed to find out for myself. Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Uhh, Bon Jour!
Kind Regards
Rich
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Rich,
Absolutely fantastic write up! I really felt the new found passion you have for your car in the write up. Well done, its satisfying to do a conversion like this.
I get the same goose bump's when I take my car out of the garage after a very long winter.... Feels more 'animalistic' and raw for having the H-Gate rather than flappy paddles.
Absolutely fantastic write up! I really felt the new found passion you have for your car in the write up. Well done, its satisfying to do a conversion like this.
I get the same goose bump's when I take my car out of the garage after a very long winter.... Feels more 'animalistic' and raw for having the H-Gate rather than flappy paddles.
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Rich, it's a great pleasure to read your very successful upgrade. I really believe that you made a huge improvement to your car by converting it to a manual. I also fully agree that the Ferrari manual transmission is well made as I never missed a shift even at WOT and with higher torque than stock. Hope spring will come soon to you, here in Switzerland we have again 20cm of snow since last night
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