[Pete04222]

I own a us spec, 1978 carbureted 308. A fellow workmate owns a 1980 GTSi. Both are rated at about 205 HP at the flywheel. His car weighs more than my car by a couple hundred pounds. Mine is faster than his car.

The Carb 308s are rated at around 255 hp. Check here: http://www.ferrariforum.net/models/view/99

When they went to fuel injection the hp dropped to 205. The QV brought the horses back up.

 

[Pete04222]

Re: Update on '80 GTSi

Sounds like you gave the car a good thorough look over. I agree that $25 is way out of the ball park. It may even be a bit too high if all that stuff is repaired. NADA blue book is showing $22,500 as an average retail price for a car in good condition overall. $18,200 is what it shows for a car in the condition you describe. I added a few comments to your observations.

1. Originally it was Metallic Silver/Grey – the clear coat began to peel and it was repainted the same color. ---Not a problem if it was well done.

2. It needs a new steering rack and alignment – there seems to be rear wheel negative camber and may require complete rear suspension bushing replacements. ---- A new steering rack is expensive. Someone else on this site found that the steering rack on a Mini is similar and you can use the parts from it to rebuild the 308 rack. Check the tech section.

3. The A/C belt was removed three years ago – do not know how much work it will need to run again. ---- This could be very expensive. The pump may be frozen. Depending on where you live this may not be an immediate issue. The AC on my car doesn't work and I just haven't bothered fixing it.

4. The windshield has an 8-inch crack in the tinted section and will need to be replaced. ---- $500?

5. The car idles very high – about 2500 RPM. ---- Could be the fuel injection system or it could be an ignition problem. Either one would probably be at least $500 to sort out. It may also be that the idle was turned up because the car won't run at the lower idle?

6. The seats are very worn, faded, and dry – not soft and will need to be replaced/recovered or redyed. ---- They can be sent out and redone. I have no idea what that costs. I would guess no less than $500 ea.

7. Parking brake is not working. ---- cables stuck?

8. The speedometer is not working – could it be a loose connection? --- the speedometer impulse generator is a common failure on the 308. $90 for a new one and easy to install. Because the speedo isn't working you must question the mileage.

9. The air pump was disconnected years ago and is now frozen in place. --- I know guys that run without them and haven't had a problem.

10. The lower section of the door panels were filled with bondo at some point – I was told that this is because the panels were all hand fitted into place and that they all have some bondo? --- I've never heard that but it does not sound unreasonable.

On both passenger and drivers sides there has been some bondo filled in where there was rust at the lowest point of the front quarter panels – an area the size of a mayonnaise jar lid.

Both lower edges of the doors show rust and rot from the inside edges along the length of the door. ------ Bigger problem. The bottoms of the doors are a common rust area. The doors should be removed to be properly repaired. Along with the area on the front fender the problem you may have is matching the paint. Metallics are hard to match and where the car was already repainted it may be more difficult to blend it in. You will probably be able to see where it was repaired after.

It was repaired poorly with bondo and the rubber door gaskets are missing.

Underneath the car at floor pan level, there is a ¼ inch thick aluminum plate about the size of a shoebox lid – is this standard or an add on? ----- I don't recall seeing one under my car, but then again I never specifically looked for one. The underside of my car is fairly clean.

And finally… the traditional Ferrari oil leak. ---- My car leaked a bit out the cam seals when I got it. The dealer told me it leaked a bit. All the leaks went away once I started driving the car. The seals shrink when they sit.

The good points are that is has 47,000 miles and I really like the color combo – Silver on Red and Black.

The transmission shifts beautifully with no flaws.

It appears that the car has never been in an accident.

Asking price $25K.

I was thinking of $18K.

What are your thoughts?

Other things to think about - at 47k questionable miles the car is due for a major service. Cam belts, valve adjustment, etc. The water pump may be an issue also. It looks to me that you've got a car that will require no less than $5,000 to put it right. Some of the issues (seats, rusty doors, etc) can be put off for a year or 2; but the car does need a bunch of money right away (engine, windshield, steering, etc.). If you can get it for $18 I think the car will always be worth what you've got into it. For anything over 20 you could probably find a better car elsewhere (but not in that color, how much is the color worth?).

 

[Pete04222]

I used to think the same thing until I found additional information on the US Spec cars.
Unfortunately, to meet emissions requirements starting in 1978 and extending half way through 1980 the US spec cars were fitted with thermal reactor mufflers, air pumps, air injection nozzles into the exhaust manifolds, exhaust cam profile and relative timing was changed, intake cam timing changed and lastly two extra sets of points installed for emissions at idle.

A terrible way to ruin a great and fun engine.

About the only advantage to a carbureted car is throttle response and the ability to recam and rejet the engine to European specs or better.

Out of the four (non-QV) 308's at dyno day a few weeks ago mine took top honors with a paltry 176.5 HP and 158 ft lbs torque at the rear wheels.

Another 100 rear wheel horse power would make this car perfect.

All the point-type 308s have dual points. It is the only way to get the full range of advance required for idle through 7,500 rpm. Not sure on the cam timing, I'll take your word on it.
Actually, 176 hp at the rear wheels isn't that bad considering all the transmission and differential losses. I bet your flywheel horsepower is well above 205. Don't forget - all carb Ferraris are now officially antique autos ('79 was the last).
Would it be possible for you to scan and post the results of your dyno test? I'd be interested to see it since your car and mine are essentially the same.

 

[Pete04222]

I understand that the Euro 308's only had a single, dual point distributor as opposed to the dual, dual point distributors on the US cars. Not sure what years these single distributor cars were though.

Mine has no points at all having been changed to the Crane XR700 solid state boxes with optical pickups. A VERY worthy modification!

I have never heard of a single distributor Ferrari V-8 with points. At 7,500 rpm you would have to have two 4 cylinder distributors. You could never reach that kind of RPM with one 8 cylinder distributor because the points would "float" at around 4,500 - 5,000 RPM. What I mean by "float" is that the distributor lobe for the next cylinder is coming around before the points have a chance to close from the last cylinder. Get rid of half the lobes and you double the time available for the points to close.

I also changed my ignition to get away from the points. I went with the Crane XR3000 ignition with the PS60 high power coils because I wanted to do away with the ballast resistor also. Very happy with it.

 

[Pete04222]

Ibut I will have to disagree about needing two distributors to run points above 5k RPM.

I have run single point distributors on Chevrolet small block V8's up to 6500 RPM without any problem. I have also run Accel dual point distributors into the 7k range. The use of points with heavier springs are required though. Drag racing trick.

My understanding of the dual point set up in a 308 is the first set is retarded at an idle for emissions purposes and cease to function via micro switch above idle transfering duty to the other sets. I also understand that each remaining set of points only has to take care of 4 cylinders. This has been discussed at length in another forum. Most people find the first set of points disconnected in the early 308's.

You can use a heavier spring but then you have accelerated wear on the points and cam lobe. The R1 points on the 308 are specifically to allow the engine to run at 500-700 RPM and they kick off when the micro switch opens to allow the crazy advance needed to run the engine at 7,500 RPM. The first set has nothing to do with emmisions. The engine is tuned for high RPMs and the second set was added to let the engine run at low RPMs.

You and I are on the same page, we are just getting there a different way. Thanks for the link to your dyno test.

 

[Pete04222]

Hi Pete,
You are right about the points with heavy springs. Always regapping the things. Even the stock, single point distributor in my 240 was challenged because of the 7,000 RPM redline. Had to regap once a month. I run a Mallory Unilite on my 350 small block and it is the only way to go. maintainance free.

Yes! The best way to deal with points is to get rid of them. I only have one car left with points. My '69 Jeep Commando with the Dauntless V-6. 160 HP of snow plowing fun. I picked up an HEI distributor (complete with coil) from an odd-fire V-6 Buick that will fit and allow me to do away with the points in that. I haven't put it in yet because the HEI distributor has the coil mounted in the cap and the hydraulic pump for the plow needs to be relocated.

 

[Pete04222]

Not a lot of power, ac poor, no visability out of the back, large turning radius. But I loved the sound of the engine and exhaust.

By today's standards that describes all 308s. I tell people that the car wasn't designed for parallel parking or city driving, it was designed to run on the open road at 7,800 rpms all day long.