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Discussion Starter #1
Hi-

This is my first post on the Ferrari Forum.

First off, I would like to say that I have always loved the 308 series.

I own three Porsche 928s and am considering adding a 308 to the stable.

I have found a car that peaked my interest - it is a 1980 308GTSi.

So far the only info that I have is: the model - 308GTSi, year - 1980, milage - 50,000, color - metallic grey/silver.

Only yesterday have I begun to do in depth research on this model.

Does any one have any advice or pitfalls that I should be aware of?

If I go to see the car, what in particular should I look for to make sure it is all original?

Thank you very much for any information that can be provided.

Carson
 

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Carson,

Welcome to the site. Let me first say good luck on your hunt, I hope you can find the right fit.

Making sure it is all original could be tuff if the person was using OEM parts when it was fixed. Probably the best thing to do first is see if they have all the service records. If they do, it will list what parts were used when the car was fixed. Of course where it was services is important to. A Ferrari specialist (dealer or non-dealer is OK) is important of course.

There are very few pitfalls to this car. Easy to do work on yourself and we have plenty of tech guys to help you in that endevour. The most recent topic on the 308 was slow windows rolling up (hey it is a 24 year old car, expected right?).

Hope that helps. On another topic, I'd love to see your 928s in the garage section of this site. Always one of my favorite Porsches. I love the V8 and the design of that car is just awesome. The lights going to the sky (cool). If ever I get a GT sports car the S4 will be one of them.

Cheers,
Andrew
 

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Hi Carson,

Welcome to the site!

And can't help anwsering your questions, but the only advise I can give you is to dump the porsches... :wink: :green:

btw. I personaly like the early 308's...

Ciao,
Marc
 

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I own a us spec, 1978 carbureted 308. A fellow workmate owns a 1980 GTSi. Both are rated at about 205 HP at the flywheel. His car weighs more than my car by a couple hundred pounds. Mine is faster than his car.

The GTSi's get a bad rap because of an oil consumption problem they had when new due to bad rings or bad ring installation. The factory actually replaced engines and after a while had the dealer repair them.

They are known as the slower 308's but not the slowest. That honor goes to the Mondial 8 which weighs even more than the GTSi. If you find a clean well maintained GTSi you can get it for a very reasonable price with minimal issues. In today's market about 26k or less, anymore than that and it would have to be EXCEPTIONAL!

The 308 GTSi is a great car and fun to drive when it is well sorted. Recommendations I have read is to save a little more money and buy the 308 QV. A good one is faster and many of the design bugs have been sorted out. When it is time to move up it is easier to resell a QV than a GTSi and you will always get a better price.

Regardless of how many records a car has it can still end up being an abused car with many issues. A PREPURCHASE INSPECTION is a must. You should base your purchase on the merits of the car IN IT'S PRESENT CONDITION more than anything else!

My opinion? Sell off two or more 928's and buy the nicest 308 QV or 328 you can find.

Just my .02 peso's :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Update on '80 GTSi

Thank you all for your help regarding this GTSi.

I spent the part of the day going over this car and here is what I found:

1. Originally it was Metallic Silver/Grey – the clear coat began to peel and it was repainted the same color.

2. It needs a new steering rack and alignment – there seems to be rear wheel negative camber and may require complete rear suspension bushing replacements.

3. The A/C belt was removed three years ago – do not know how much work it will need to run again.

4. The windshield has an 8-inch crack in the tinted section and will need to be replaced.

5. The car idles very high – about 2500 RPM.

6. The seats are very worn, faded, and dry – not soft and will need to be replaced/recovered or redyed.

7. Parking brake is not working.

8. The speedometer is not working – could it be a loose connection?

9. The air pump was disconnected years ago and is now frozen in place.

10. The lower section of the door panels were filled with bondo at some point – I was told that this is because the panels were all hand fitted into place and that they all have some bondo?

On both passenger and drivers sides there has been some bondo filled in where there was rust at the lowest point of the front quarter panels – an area the size of a mayonnaise jar lid.

Both lower edges of the doors show rust and rot from the inside edges along the length of the door.

It was repaired poorly with bondo and the rubber door gaskets are missing.

Underneath the car at floor pan level, there is a ¼ inch thick aluminum plate about the size of a shoebox lid – is this standard or an add on?

And finally… the traditional Ferrari oil leak.

The good points are that is has 47,000 miles and I really like the color combo – Silver on Red and Black.

The transmission shifts beautifully with no flaws.

It appears that the car has never been in an accident.

Asking price $25K.

I was thinking of $18K.

What are your thoughts?

Best Regards,

Carson
 

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18K sounds reasonable for all the problems on the car. Sounds like it really has not been maintiained well at all.
 

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I think 18K is reasonable as well. Of course he will balk at this so you may have to be willing to pay 20K. I wouldn't pay a dime higher.

If you do get the car we would love to help you restore it. The guys in the Tech section can surely help you there. If you like projects then I would say get it.
 

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Spasso said:
I own a us spec, 1978 carbureted 308. A fellow workmate owns a 1980 GTSi. Both are rated at about 205 HP at the flywheel. His car weighs more than my car by a couple hundred pounds. Mine is faster than his car.
The Carb 308s are rated at around 255 hp. Check here: http://www.ferrariforum.net/models/view/99

When they went to fuel injection the hp dropped to 205. The QV brought the horses back up.
 

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Re: Update on '80 GTSi

Sounds like you gave the car a good thorough look over. I agree that $25 is way out of the ball park. It may even be a bit too high if all that stuff is repaired. NADA blue book is showing $22,500 as an average retail price for a car in good condition overall. $18,200 is what it shows for a car in the condition you describe. I added a few comments to your observations.

1. Originally it was Metallic Silver/Grey – the clear coat began to peel and it was repainted the same color. ---Not a problem if it was well done.

2. It needs a new steering rack and alignment – there seems to be rear wheel negative camber and may require complete rear suspension bushing replacements. ---- A new steering rack is expensive. Someone else on this site found that the steering rack on a Mini is similar and you can use the parts from it to rebuild the 308 rack. Check the tech section.

3. The A/C belt was removed three years ago – do not know how much work it will need to run again. ---- This could be very expensive. The pump may be frozen. Depending on where you live this may not be an immediate issue. The AC on my car doesn't work and I just haven't bothered fixing it.

4. The windshield has an 8-inch crack in the tinted section and will need to be replaced. ---- $500?

5. The car idles very high – about 2500 RPM. ---- Could be the fuel injection system or it could be an ignition problem. Either one would probably be at least $500 to sort out. It may also be that the idle was turned up because the car won't run at the lower idle?

6. The seats are very worn, faded, and dry – not soft and will need to be replaced/recovered or redyed. ---- They can be sent out and redone. I have no idea what that costs. I would guess no less than $500 ea.

7. Parking brake is not working. ---- cables stuck?

8. The speedometer is not working – could it be a loose connection? --- the speedometer impulse generator is a common failure on the 308. $90 for a new one and easy to install. Because the speedo isn't working you must question the mileage.

9. The air pump was disconnected years ago and is now frozen in place. --- I know guys that run without them and haven't had a problem.

10. The lower section of the door panels were filled with bondo at some point – I was told that this is because the panels were all hand fitted into place and that they all have some bondo? --- I've never heard that but it does not sound unreasonable.

On both passenger and drivers sides there has been some bondo filled in where there was rust at the lowest point of the front quarter panels – an area the size of a mayonnaise jar lid.

Both lower edges of the doors show rust and rot from the inside edges along the length of the door. ------ Bigger problem. The bottoms of the doors are a common rust area. The doors should be removed to be properly repaired. Along with the area on the front fender the problem you may have is matching the paint. Metallics are hard to match and where the car was already repainted it may be more difficult to blend it in. You will probably be able to see where it was repaired after.

It was repaired poorly with bondo and the rubber door gaskets are missing.

Underneath the car at floor pan level, there is a ¼ inch thick aluminum plate about the size of a shoebox lid – is this standard or an add on? ----- I don't recall seeing one under my car, but then again I never specifically looked for one. The underside of my car is fairly clean.

And finally… the traditional Ferrari oil leak. ---- My car leaked a bit out the cam seals when I got it. The dealer told me it leaked a bit. All the leaks went away once I started driving the car. The seals shrink when they sit.

The good points are that is has 47,000 miles and I really like the color combo – Silver on Red and Black.

The transmission shifts beautifully with no flaws.

It appears that the car has never been in an accident.

Asking price $25K.

I was thinking of $18K.

What are your thoughts?

Other things to think about - at 47k questionable miles the car is due for a major service. Cam belts, valve adjustment, etc. The water pump may be an issue also. It looks to me that you've got a car that will require no less than $5,000 to put it right. Some of the issues (seats, rusty doors, etc) can be put off for a year or 2; but the car does need a bunch of money right away (engine, windshield, steering, etc.). If you can get it for $18 I think the car will always be worth what you've got into it. For anything over 20 you could probably find a better car elsewhere (but not in that color, how much is the color worth?).
 

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Pete04222 said:
Spasso said:
I own a us spec, 1978 carbureted 308. A fellow workmate owns a 1980 GTSi. Both are rated at about 205 HP at the flywheel. His car weighs more than my car by a couple hundred pounds. Mine is faster than his car.
The Carb 308s are rated at around 255 hp. Check here: http://www.ferrariforum.net/models/view/99

When they went to fuel injection the hp dropped to 205. The QV brought the horses back up.
I used to think the same thing until I found additional information on the US Spec cars.
Unfortunately, to meet emissions requirements starting in 1978 and extending half way through 1980 the US spec cars were fitted with thermal reactor mufflers, air pumps, air injection nozzles into the exhaust manifolds, exhaust cam profile and relative timing was changed, intake cam timing changed and lastly two extra sets of points installed for emissions at idle.

A terrible way to ruin a great and fun engine.

About the only advantage to a carbureted car is throttle response and the ability to recam and rejet the engine to European specs or better.

Out of the four (non-QV) 308's at dyno day a few weeks ago mine took top honors with a paltry 176.5 HP and 158 ft lbs torque at the rear wheels.

Another 100 rear wheel horse power would make this car perfect.
 

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Rust problems are a huge undertaking to correct. Somebody has already done a half-assed job correcting the problem once which makes it twice as hard the second time to do it right. The bondo was a quick patch job to get the car sold the last time.
If you find a one inch diameter bubble in the paint due to rust a good rule of thumb is to multply the size, time to fix it, and cost by two. Unless you are a body and paint guy then you can tack 5k to the purchase price of your car for the eventual body and paint repair.

I would try to scrape together some more cash now to get a better car with lower miles.
 

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Spasso said:
I used to think the same thing until I found additional information on the US Spec cars.
Unfortunately, to meet emissions requirements starting in 1978 and extending half way through 1980 the US spec cars were fitted with thermal reactor mufflers, air pumps, air injection nozzles into the exhaust manifolds, exhaust cam profile and relative timing was changed, intake cam timing changed and lastly two extra sets of points installed for emissions at idle.

A terrible way to ruin a great and fun engine.

About the only advantage to a carbureted car is throttle response and the ability to recam and rejet the engine to European specs or better.

Out of the four (non-QV) 308's at dyno day a few weeks ago mine took top honors with a paltry 176.5 HP and 158 ft lbs torque at the rear wheels.

Another 100 rear wheel horse power would make this car perfect.
All the point-type 308s have dual points. It is the only way to get the full range of advance required for idle through 7,500 rpm. Not sure on the cam timing, I'll take your word on it.
Actually, 176 hp at the rear wheels isn't that bad considering all the transmission and differential losses. I bet your flywheel horsepower is well above 205. Don't forget - all carb Ferraris are now officially antique autos ('79 was the last).
Would it be possible for you to scan and post the results of your dyno test? I'd be interested to see it since your car and mine are essentially the same.
 

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Hi Pete,
I heard about the cam timing on another site discussing the reindexing the cams to European specs when doing a 30k to gain more horse power. From what I learned the intake cam has close to the same profile and duration and can be reindexed to the opening and closing points of the Euro spec. Unfortunately the profile of the exhaust cam is different, less lift and retarded timing if I remember correctly. The timing on the exhaust cam can be changed but the lift and duration still falls short of the Euro set up. There has been a marked improvement in horse power just the same and I will probably do this on my next 30k.

I understand that the Euro 308's only had a single, dual point distributor as opposed to the dual, dual point distributors on the US cars. Not sure what years these single distributor cars were though.

Mine has no points at all having been changed to the Crane XR700 solid state boxes with optical pickups. A VERY worthy modification!
 

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Spasso said:
I understand that the Euro 308's only had a single, dual point distributor as opposed to the dual, dual point distributors on the US cars. Not sure what years these single distributor cars were though.

Mine has no points at all having been changed to the Crane XR700 solid state boxes with optical pickups. A VERY worthy modification!
I have never heard of a single distributor Ferrari V-8 with points. At 7,500 rpm you would have to have two 4 cylinder distributors. You could never reach that kind of RPM with one 8 cylinder distributor because the points would "float" at around 4,500 - 5,000 RPM. What I mean by "float" is that the distributor lobe for the next cylinder is coming around before the points have a chance to close from the last cylinder. Get rid of half the lobes and you double the time available for the points to close.

I also changed my ignition to get away from the points. I went with the Crane XR3000 ignition with the PS60 high power coils because I wanted to do away with the ballast resistor also. Very happy with it.
 

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I stand corrected on the Euro dual point distributor. I think it was a magnetic pick-up type but I will have to disagree about needing two distributors to run points above 5k RPM.

I have run single point distributors on Chevrolet small block V8's up to 6500 RPM without any problem. I have also run Accel dual point distributors into the 7k range. The use of points with heavier springs are required though. Drag racing trick.

My understanding of the dual point set up in a 308 is the first set is retarded at an idle for emissions purposes and cease to function via micro switch above idle transfering duty to the other sets. I also understand that each remaining set of points only has to take care of 4 cylinders. This has been discussed at length in another forum. Most people find the first set of points disconnected in the early 308's.

You can find my dyno chart here;
http://www.ferrariforum.net/forum/download.php?id=1371
 

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Spasso said:
Ibut I will have to disagree about needing two distributors to run points above 5k RPM.

I have run single point distributors on Chevrolet small block V8's up to 6500 RPM without any problem. I have also run Accel dual point distributors into the 7k range. The use of points with heavier springs are required though. Drag racing trick.

My understanding of the dual point set up in a 308 is the first set is retarded at an idle for emissions purposes and cease to function via micro switch above idle transfering duty to the other sets. I also understand that each remaining set of points only has to take care of 4 cylinders. This has been discussed at length in another forum. Most people find the first set of points disconnected in the early 308's.
You can use a heavier spring but then you have accelerated wear on the points and cam lobe. The R1 points on the 308 are specifically to allow the engine to run at 500-700 RPM and they kick off when the micro switch opens to allow the crazy advance needed to run the engine at 7,500 RPM. The first set has nothing to do with emmisions. The engine is tuned for high RPMs and the second set was added to let the engine run at low RPMs.

You and I are on the same page, we are just getting there a different way. Thanks for the link to your dyno test.
 

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Hi Pete,
I mentioned the R1 points as being related to emissions at idle because of what I read about the detuning of the US spec 308's in '78. I wish I had the source handy but my feeble mind can't come up with it. It mentioned, as you did, the need for both sets to cover the wide range of timing required.

You are right about the points with heavy springs. Always regapping the things. Even the stock, single point distributor in my 240 was challenged because of the 7,000 RPM redline. Had to regap once a month. I run a Mallory Unilite on my 350 small block and it is the only way to go. maintainance free.

Enclosed is the engine specs page from my owners manual. I was bummed when I first read the SAE bhp rating. (Below my signature).
 

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