STL Motorsport vs FNA filings - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 81 Old 10-12-2011, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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STL Motorsport vs FNA filings

Gentlemen

I have received numerous e-mails over the filing of a suit and obviously I am no longer a part of
F-chat so no way of participating in discussions there.

This filing is not a good thing for us owners and enthusiasts anyway you slice it.

STL did everything they thought necessary to bring a Ferrari Franchise - not just a service center.

We lose when STL loses - it's a major blow to all of us as we have all benefited from STL and their open door policy to peruse their facility.

Given the situation and assuming the result.

I would like to see another group jump in and either open up a service and or do as STL did make an attempt to receive a dealership regardless of the past history as that is now for the courts to decide.

Given the uncertainty in the market along with STL's presence it's going to go down as a loss for all of us.

I would like to begin a letter writing campaign to FNA in support of the owners and enthusiasts to keep Ferrari in St. Louis in some capacity.

Open to suggestions and thoughts.

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post #2 of 81 Old 10-12-2011, 04:37 PM
 
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thought/suggestion:

have the local FCA chapter write a letter on behalf of all the members/owners, and have that letter signed by all the members of the club. sort of a petition, I guess.

show FNA that a) STL has Ferrari owners, b) the FCA is organized and involved, c) owners of Ferraris in the region are tired of getting the shaft.

FNA is motivated by $$$. prove to them that there's some to be had in STL.
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post #3 of 81 Old 10-12-2011, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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thought/suggestion:

have the local FCA chapter write a letter on behalf of all the members/owners, and have that letter signed by all the members of the club. sort of a petition, I guess.

show FNA that a) STL has Ferrari owners, b) the FCA is organized and involved, c) owners of Ferraris in the region are tired of getting the shaft.

FNA is motivated by $$$. prove to them that there's some to be had in STL.
FCA Chapter is worth a shot - I could draft a petition and go from there.

500+ local Ferrari owners - one would think both parties would have sent a letter of explanation to their customers.

Wonder if Lake Forest and or Continental is in preparation!

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post #4 of 81 Old 10-13-2011, 05:05 AM
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Here are the 2 filings that Randy was able to find.

Agree that StLM has been a great service for the local Ferrari community. Authorized service and warranty work is an important offering for all the newer cars. Keep in mind that the closest dealers to us here are Chcago (2), Dallas/Plano and Denver. Kansas City has apparently made approaches to secure a franchise over the last few years.

StLM has also been very friendly to the local Ferrari club. No matter the outcome I hope that they will continue to be this way with us.

The filing of lawsuits is pretty certain that StLM will no longer have authorized Ferrari anything. I further believe that it will most likely end the Maserati franchise too.

Apparently StLM tried all sorts of campaigns with St. Louis area folks with some level of standing making requests to FNA for the franchise. StLM tried showing FNA the size of this market, quantity of cars already here and all the other arguments but FNA just was not interested. Allegedly in the last attempts to get the franchise FNA wanted StLM to get "no objection" from both Continental and Lake Forest.

Doug, I'll sign whatever you come up with. You are correct that St. Louis needs and is sufficiently worthy of having a full franchise. Problem I see is that based upon some of the allegations that StLM makes in the filing FNA may need to stay out of the state of Mo. for a while as there could be state charges possible; and the most aggregious assertions are likely to come from the future depositions.

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post #5 of 81 Old 10-13-2011, 05:24 AM Thread Starter
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Here are the 2 filings that Randy was able to find.

Agree that StLM has been a great service for the local Ferrari community. Authorized service and warranty work is an important offering for all the newer cars. Keep in mind that the closest dealers to us here are Chcago (2), Dallas/Plano and Denver. Kansas City has apparently made approaches to secure a franchise over the last few years.

StLM has also been very friendly to the local Ferrari club. No matter the outcome I hope that they will continue to be this way with us.

The filing of lawsuits is pretty certain that StLM will no longer have authorized Ferrari anything. I further believe that it will most likely end the Maserati franchise too.

Apparently StLM tried all sorts of campaigns with St. Louis area folks with some level of standing making requests to FNA for the franchise. StLM tried showing FNA the size of this market, quantity of cars already here and all the other arguments but FNA just was not interested. Allegedly in the last attempts to get the franchise FNA wanted StLM to get "no objection" from both Continental and Lake Forest.

Doug, I'll sign whatever you come up with. You are correct that St. Louis needs and is sufficiently worthy of having a full franchise. Problem I see is that based upon some of the allegations that StLM makes in the filing FNA may need to stay out of the state of Mo. for a while as there could be state charges possible; and the most aggregious assertions are likely to come from the future depositions.

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Thank You Jeff and appreciate you asserting a position.

The filings are what they are - it's not my battle and whatever my opinion is will not weigh in the outcome.

However I do feel that FNA owes the owners and customers of STL an explanation. In the event if there no longer a service center the value of ownership certainly does depreciate the ownership value.

All of us owners and enthusiasts deserve and certainly have earned that FNA make some sort of an announcement to satisfy it's audience.

I feel our local chapter also is what it is - but that is not to say that it can not change and it is in our control to do so.

I am almost tempted to have a Holiday Party at my house and put forth some serious effort.

Please advise others that posting here and on f-chat is fine it is just something I am unable to do.

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post #6 of 81 Old 10-13-2011, 06:08 AM
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Thank You Jeff and appreciate you asserting a position.

The filings are what they are - it's not my battle and whatever my opinion is will not weigh in the outcome.

However I do feel that FNA owes the owners and customers of STL an explanation. In the event if there no longer a service center the value of ownership certainly does depreciate the ownership value.

All of us owners and enthusiasts deserve and certainly have earned that FNA make some sort of an announcement to satisfy it's audience.

I feel our local chapter also is what it is - but that is not to say that it can not change and it is in our control to do so.

I am almost tempted to have a Holiday Party at my house and put forth some serious effort.

Please advise others that posting here and on f-chat is fine it is just something I am unable to do.
Lawsuit: For those that never knew or forgot - some of the allegations that StLM makes are in the realm that got Rick Hendrick's under criminal charges with his Honda dealerships. The same situation also got a string of top people at Honda North America fired. These have implications for state and federal violations beyond a little Chesterfield dispute. The filing also talks of a class action that, with these public admissions, could be restarted again.

FNA Communications: I too would like to see positive actions by FNA but that is not their history. It is considered a huge deal that FNA even agrees to support the Ferrari Club for the 2012 and 2013 National meet. Historically for decades FNA has been generally oblivious to the clubs and occaisionally show small levels of interest. Wish it wasn't so. And with this going on anything that they might even want to say would have to be so completely sanitized by the attorneys that it might never see the light of day.

Holiday Party: To be clear, I was never angling for the event to be at your place but would happily take you up on it if you decide to do it. I am working on a list of potential restaurants around St. Louis that might be candidates. My criteria says that they have to have good parking (hope the weather cooperates), private/segregated area for the group (thinking we could have 60 people if we work on it) and a nice place that is worth going to for everyone. Andy has some connections he is trying so we can get someone as a featured speaker/topic.

Club Direction: Absolutely agreed that if we want change we are going to have to implement it with our own actions and creating the events we want to see. (Andy is anxious to help in any way he can) The current guard seems to believe things are just fine the way they are.

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post #7 of 81 Old 10-13-2011, 07:34 AM
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FNA is on a campaign to reel in all it's dealers by having them bought up by friendly dealer groups, usually with piero having a share. so i heard. stl probably ain't gonna happen. just my uneducated guess.



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post #8 of 81 Old 10-13-2011, 07:57 AM
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FNA is on a campaign to reel in all it's dealers by having them bought up by friendly dealer groups, usually with piero having a share. so i heard. stl probably ain't gonna happen. just my uneducated guess.
Unfortunately they may think of us as a "flyover" area. Flyover = the area of the country that one flies over from NY to LA.

The story from back when on the Beverly Hills dealership is indicative of what FNA is/has been capable of. The forced Hollywood Sports Cars to create a stand alone store on Wilshire although they had been a long time dealer with likely one of the highest sales of anyone in the US. Owner Chic Vandagriff had personal dealings with Enzo. Anyway, after the new store was done FNA went to Vandagriff and gave him an ultimatum - sell to a connected family member (don't remember if FNA family related or Ferrari/Agnelli) that wanted to live in LA LA Land or the franchise would be cancelled anyway.

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post #9 of 81 Old 10-16-2011, 07:12 AM
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Here is the New Jersy DJ action. If Ferrari has the documents to back their allegations up, I don't think StLM has a leg to stand on. Also, it strikes me that StLM alleges the RICO violations. Basically what they're saying is that Ferrari broke the law and we were fine with it until they broke their deal with us. I can't imagine the U.S. Attorney would be happy with either of them is that were true. I think I would have save those allegations for a later deposition.

After reading through the filing I am surprised how FNA did not do much to address their innocence on the release of new cars from the Mill Valley to StLM and the entire RICO assertions. They did do a nice job of showing how StLM made a business plan showing how Maserati sales and service only for Ferrari were financially viable.

From what I have heard in the past there was a Ferrari sales agreement done for StLM and waiting for one last signature by FNA. If true then this, to me, would clearly refute all the FNA statements that there never was an intention to have a sales outlet in the St. Louis area.

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post #10 of 81 Old 10-17-2011, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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This is one of the most ridiculous lawsuits I have ever seen.

At the same time FNA better figure how to keep a service center in STL.

I don't care if they bring in Wynn Penske - but they better have someone on board to appear soon.

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post #11 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 05:07 AM
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This is one of the most ridiculous lawsuits I have ever seen.

At the same time FNA better figure how to keep a service center in STL.

I don't care if they bring in Wynn Penske - but they better have someone on board to appear soon.
Unfortunately I think getting another one here anytime soon may not be forthcoming from FNA. Ian said that just the 458 tooling package was $50,000 - required to be bought as soon as the car was intro'd.

If someone could justify getting the Leonardo package that might solve a bunch of the needs to be able to work on the cars/read the data. Heard that machine is $250,000 though.

Maybe StLM will continue to work on Ferraris just not be "authorized". The agreement with FNA requires that they return all the Ferrari signage and talks of the ability to return inventory and tooling; not sure it required their return. IF they continued to service then they would be free to source parts from wherever instead of just FNA.

The next closest dealerships are in Chicago and Dallas. Maybe they will make an effort to support our area. When gas was much cheaper a few years ago one of the Chicago stores advertised trucking of cars for service - think their area did include us or near to us.

It is insane to me that someone like FNA doesn't recognize the good business sense that St. Louis must make. If StLM is able to keep their doors open (likely an indicator of being at least reasonably profitable) with all the big dollar brands they have then that should alone make the argument that this area has the requisite disposable income and disires to support the Ferrari brand. FNA may just be too myopic with their apparent love of the coasts, the Sunbelt and then Chicago.

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post #12 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 05:38 AM Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I think getting another one here anytime soon may not be forthcoming from FNA. Ian said that just the 458 tooling package was $50,000 - required to be bought as soon as the car was intro'd.

If someone could justify getting the Leonardo package that might solve a bunch of the needs to be able to work on the cars/read the data. Heard that machine is $250,000 though.

Maybe StLM will continue to work on Ferraris just not be "authorized". The agreement with FNA requires that they return all the Ferrari signage and talks of the ability to return inventory and tooling; not sure it required their return. IF they continued to service then they would be free to source parts from wherever instead of just FNA.

The next closest dealerships are in Chicago and Dallas. Maybe they will make an effort to support our area. When gas was much cheaper a few years ago one of the Chicago stores advertised trucking of cars for service - think their area did include us or near to us.

It is insane to me that someone like FNA doesn't recognize the good business sense that St. Louis must make. If StLM is able to keep their doors open (likely an indicator of being at least reasonably profitable) with all the big dollar brands they have then that should alone make the argument that this area has the requisite disposable income and disires to support the Ferrari brand. FNA may just be too myopic with their apparent love of the coasts, the Sunbelt and then Chicago.

Jeff

I think that is the game plan ... but if STL is selling competing brands why service something you do NOT sell especially if it's not for profit.

The 458 tool at 50k - the profit on one car is well worth the tool - which there in lies the problem.

Jeff Ferrari is pumping out 10,000 cars - FNA may not act like it but they do need sales.

Why Chicago has two dealers and St Louis none is the conundrum but given those two in Chicago and the lawsuits that have been flying for years has a lot to do with STL receiving or not receiving a franchise.

Ferrari is not Disneyland - FNA better wake up and service their customers.

Ferrari initiated a 7 year warranty because they need long term relations - this FNA bs makes Ferrari look moronic to it's customers.

Sounds like the tools are leased vs owned by STL which is a whole nutter issue

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post #13 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 06:41 AM
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I think that is the game plan ... but if STL is selling competing brands why service something you do NOT sell especially if it's not for profit.

The 458 tool at 50k - the profit on one car is well worth the tool - which there in lies the problem.

Jeff Ferrari is pumping out 10,000 cars - FNA may not act like it but they do need sales.

Why Chicago has two dealers and St Louis none is the conundrum but given those two in Chicago and the lawsuits that have been flying for years has a lot to do with STL receiving or not receiving a franchise.

Ferrari is not Disneyland - FNA better wake up and service their customers.

Ferrari initiated a 7 year warranty because they need long term relations - this FNA bs makes Ferrari look moronic to it's customers.

Sounds like the tools are leased vs owned by STL which is a whole nutter issue
Tools - Read the attachment from the FNA complaint in the New Jersey filing. A dealer/service operation has to buy the tools, inventory and assorted signage from FNA originally. If there is an end to the relationship there is a buy back mechanism that includes a depreciation calculation.

$50K for a 458, what will it be for an FF and the 599 replacement, what was it for the California? This can be serious money that is mandated to be spent even if it takes a while for there to be one car in the market.

FNA - I remember when Luca de Montezemelo was being quoted some years back about how Ferrari would never build more than 3,000 or 3,500 cars a year. Well, never sort of went by the wayside. The arrogance of FNA is astounding; dare I say "head up a*s"? Without any doubt they do understand and practice Machievellian tactics.

How many new Ferraris have come into St. Louis in the last 12 or so months? Randy has 2, Randy's partner got 1 or 2, Marty got the Cali, JP got the 458 and these are just the ones that come quickly to mind. Had some interesting conversations with Paul from EMM - a lot more local interest by the locals in exotics; a lot less of the area's negative sentiments of showing money and enjoying it.

The 2 dealers in Chicago have had their franchises for a long, long time. I suspect that they both sell enough cars to be viable. If FNA wanted to do anything it might be problematic of one versus another.

If this lawsuit gets to depositions then there might be some nice fireworks to watch. Do not forget that StLM has alleged RICO violations by FNA and the FNA response to this in their New Jersey filing was, in my opinion, obtuse. Too bad even if StLM prevails it won't likely get us a store or another service center appointment here.

Doug, on an individual basis maybe it would make sense for you to reach out to the 2 Chicago folks and tune them up to the need to develop a support plan for us here in the hinterlands.

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post #14 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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Tools - Read the attachment from the FNA complaint in the New Jersey filing. A dealer/service operation has to buy the tools, inventory and assorted signage from FNA originally. If there is an end to the relationship there is a buy back mechanism that includes a depreciation calculation.

$50K for a 458, what will it be for an FF and the 599 replacement, what was it for the California? This can be serious money that is mandated to be spent even if it takes a while for there to be one car in the market.

FNA - I remember when Luca de Montezemelo was being quoted some years back about how Ferrari would never build more than 3,000 or 3,500 cars a year. Well, never sort of went by the wayside. The arrogance of FNA is astounding; dare I say "head up a*s"? Without any doubt they do understand and practice Machievellian tactics.

How many new Ferraris have come into St. Louis in the last 12 or so months? Randy has 2, Randy's partner got 1 or 2, Marty got the Cali, JP got the 458 and these are just the ones that come quickly to mind. Had some interesting conversations with Paul from EMM - a lot more local interest by the locals in exotics; a lot less of the area's negative sentiments of showing money and enjoying it.

The 2 dealers in Chicago have had their franchises for a long, long time. I suspect that they both sell enough cars to be viable. If FNA wanted to do anything it might be problematic of one versus another.

If this lawsuit gets to depositions then there might be some nice fireworks to watch. Do not forget that StLM has alleged RICO violations by FNA and the FNA response to this in their New Jersey filing was, in my opinion, obtuse. Too bad even if StLM prevails it won't likely get us a store or another service center appointment here.

Doug, on an individual basis maybe it would make sense for you to reach out to the 2 Chicago folks and tune them up to the need to develop a support plan for us here in the hinterlands.

Jeff
I understand the tools issue - I was in the electrical distribution business and incurred similar costs - nothing special about the costs incurred it's a risk that business people take. FNA by having the right to take the tools back at an agreed upon cost speaks volumes.

All the lines I distributed could be terminated in 30 - 365 days ... no news there STL was simply a business taking an opportunity to make money and bringing in Ferrari owners to try and sell them other brands

To be honest seems more like an advantage to STL to service Ferrari and allow those customers to peruse other manufacturers.

There are plenty of new Ferrari's and Ferrari's under warranty in St Louis to support a dealer and service center properly. I think STL has proven that in spades which is another reason this whole mess is ridiculous.

Given the friends of the people whom own Ferrari's FNA may have a really large problem with their customers under warranty

I have reached out but the dust needs to settle - FNA would be smart to adhere to the customer service one was enticed under.

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Jeff, Doug- The Leonardo tool is only about $20K, but that is not a complete solution. If you do not have access to Ferrari's MODIS, you really have a hard time analyzing the new cars because much of the diagnosis is done online with no other diagnostic tool, only cables. Parts catalogs are also carried on MODIS, which is continuously updated for running changes on the assembly line. With no dealer service agreement, they would be paying FNA nearly retail (maybe less 10%) for parts, at any rate.

The lawsuits are definitely "he said, she said", but the likely outcome is your dealer will lose, FNA will cancel their service agreement, and your dealer will lose access to MODIS. Now that Maserati and Ferrari have been separated, the service data is in totally separate channels.

Not good news for St Louis Ferrari owners of newer cars, but cars like the 612, Scud, 599, etc can still be maintained with an SD3 and a workshop manual.

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post #16 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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Jeff, Doug- The Leonardo tool is only about $20K, but that is not a complete solution. If you do not have access to Ferrari's MODIS, you really have a hard time analyzing the new cars because much of the diagnosis is done online with no other diagnostic tool, only cables. Parts catalogs are also carried on MODIS, which is continuously updated for running changes on the assembly line. With no dealer service agreement, they would be paying FNA nearly retail (maybe less 10%) for parts, at any rate.

The lawsuits are definitely "he said, she said", but the likely outcome is your dealer will lose, FNA will cancel their service agreement, and your dealer will lose access to MODIS. Now that Maserati and Ferrari have been separated, the service data is in totally separate channels.

Not good news for St Louis Ferrari owners of newer cars, but cars like the 612, Scud, 599, etc can still be maintained with an SD3 and a workshop manual.
Terry I agree 100%

Any thoughts on Ferrari Service going with another center?

Just for giggles I looked up Ferrari Sales / Dealer ... interesting to note we have a dealership

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Deale...r_Locator.aspx

If I were STL - slam that on the largest overhead projector known to man that would fit in a courtroom.

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post #17 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 10:30 AM
 
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Terry I agree 100%

Any thoughts on Ferrari Service going with another center?

Just for giggles I looked up Ferrari Sales / Dealer ... interesting to note we have a dealership

Dealer Locator

If I were STL - slam that on the largest overhead projector known to man that would fit in a courtroom.
case closed!

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post #18 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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FNA is on a campaign to reel in all it's dealers by having them bought up by friendly dealer groups, usually with piero having a share. so i heard. stl probably ain't gonna happen. just my uneducated guess.

Any company or person that relies on another company to their detriment is going to be held accountable.

Ferrari FNA etc. can't just go around opening and closing markets - no more than any other company selling goods that have warranties and consumer expectations of service.

Customers bought the product knowing there was a service center to take care of warranty work by local professionals.

This service is a cost FNA or someone at Ferrari will have to assume.

Besides the Dealer Locator hosted by FNA says we have a dealer. So I am going to go over there and purchase a new 458 Spider

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post #19 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 12:06 PM
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Besides the Dealer Locator hosted by FNA says we have a dealer. So I am going to go over there and purchase a new 458 Spider
Doug,

I looked at the website and then looked at any other "dealer". StLM has the icon for service but there is a different icon for authorized sales. Wish it would have been this simple.

If StLM can get enough of the "dirt" with FNA into play during discovery, the depositions and (maybe) an eventual trial then they may be able to win this afterall and cause serious embarassment to FNA. Unfortunately my feeling is that even if they prevail the franchise will be pulled.

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post #20 of 81 Old 10-18-2011, 12:18 PM
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Jeff- Yup, it shows they have service and accessories, but no new car sales.

Doug- Where did you buy your 612? It was pre-owned IIRC.

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