512 TR Forged Differential Bulletin - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 23 Old 09-10-2011, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
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512 TR Forged Differential Bulletin

Not sure if this was posted earlier of not, but thought Boxer and TR owners might be interested. Newman's carrier is the best solution now, I would think.

One on differential shims, too.

Forgot I gave those to Andrew to post. They are in the member tab, too.

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File Type: pdf ti30_23 512 TR Forged Differential.pdf (538.0 KB, 301 views)
File Type: pdf ti632_3 512Tr Differential Shims.pdf (72.3 KB, 222 views)

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post #2 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 09:30 AM
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Thought worthwhile to highlight/remember again. Thanks Terry. Do you know from which chassis number on the 512 TR's had the strengthened case Version ? (Maybe I have overseen that)

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post #3 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 10:14 AM
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Documentation states that transaxle 1370+ has the forged housing, 1513+ have the forged housing plus the updated ring & pinion, locating dowels & improved bolts.


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post #4 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 10:16 AM
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This is a great carrier with all of the diff guts included! Phil is a pleasure to deal with, as well!
155099R DIFFERENTIAL (CARRIER) UPGRADE : Ricambi America

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post #5 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
Documentation states that transaxle 1370+ has the forged housing, 1513+ have the forged housing plus the updated ring & pinion, locating dowels & improved bolts.
Yes, but any idea as to which chassis/Assembly number that will correspondent ? Or does it means that from the 1513th. produced TR forward, the new complete strengthened solution is applied?

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post #6 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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212- It happened late in 512 TR production. All the Boxers and TRs had the welded carrier. We can do some estimating. The forged carrier happened at 512 TR Transmission Number 1513. There were 2290 512 TRs built. Disregarding spares, that would be 1513/2290 of the way, 66.1%, through production. First 512 TR, from Carbon, was 89100, last was 99743. Difference in serial numbers 10643. 10643x0.661=7035. 89100+7035=96153.

So somewhere around serial number 96000 is where the change occurred. Unless someone from around that serial number range gives us their transmission number, that is about as close as I can get.

David- Happy to see Daniel is carrying the forged diff carrier and guts. Is that the same supplier Newman uses or a better one? I did not remember Newman's having the diff guts, too.

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post #7 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
212- It happened late in 512 TR production. All the Boxers and TRs had the welded carrier. We can do some estimating. The forged carrier happened at 512 TR Transmission Number 1513. There were 2290 512 TRs built. Disregarding spares, that would be 1513/2290 of the way, 66.1%, through production. First 512 TR, from Carbon, was 89100, last was 99743. Difference in serial numbers 10643. 10643x0.661=7035. 89100+7035=96153.

So somewhere around serial number 96000 is where the change occurred. Unless someone from around that serial number range gives us their transmission number, that is about as close as I can get.

David- Happy to see Daniel is carrying the forged diff carrier and guts. Is that the same supplier Newman uses or a better one? I did not remember Newman's having the diff guts, too.


Assuming chassis numbers have been given only to 512 TR's at the time.....;-). But I see it is the latest third of production approximatelly who got it. Thanks Terry.

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post #8 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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212- No, that does not assume all the chassis numbers were 512 TRs. It just assumes the distribution of the 512 TRs is somewhat even through production from 89100-99743. If all of them were 512s there would be 10643 512 TRs and we know there were only 2290. That is why we used the 1513/2290 fraction to calculate how far along production the change should have occurred.

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post #9 of 23 Old 02-18-2014, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
212- No, that does not assume all the chassis numbers were 512 TRs. It just assumes the distribution of the 512 TRs is somewhat even through production from 89100-99743. If all of them were 512s there would be 10643 512 TRs and we know there were only 2290. That is why we used the 1513/2290 fraction to calculate how far along production the change should have occurred.
Now, finally the dummie here gets it. Thought about app. 10'000 total production Testarossas (Testa's, TR's and M's) and that (falsely in my brain) coincidented roughly with your mentioned chassis numbers spread. But then the whole numbers row would start at a much lower chassis number of course.
That said, late '93TR production would be possibly the first ones with the better constructional layout ?!

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post #10 of 23 Old 02-19-2014, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
212- It happened late in 512 TR production. All the Boxers and TRs had the welded carrier. We can do some estimating. The forged carrier happened at 512 TR Transmission Number 1513. There were 2290 512 TRs built. Disregarding spares, that would be 1513/2290 of the way, 66.1%, through production. First 512 TR, from Carbon, was 89100, last was 99743. Difference in serial numbers 10643. 10643x0.661=7035. 89100+7035=96153.

So somewhere around serial number 96000 is where the change occurred. Unless someone from around that serial number range gives us their transmission number, that is about as close as I can get.

David- Happy to see Daniel is carrying the forged diff carrier and guts. Is that the same supplier Newman uses or a better one? I did not remember Newman's having the diff guts, too.


Terry, extrapolations from VIN's is difficult during that period. Ferrari was playing a lot of games to dance around Federal and California state regulations of the period. Not to mention the cars were not selling well and I suspect were being stockpiled in Maranello and year model assignment was made when shipped.



I have TR512 86815 here right now. It has a May 91 production date, engine #11 and trans #43 yet it is a 93 model year car. This particular car is equipped as a 93 but was built 2 years earlier.


I had 92072 here recently. Don't know the production date but it was clearly a 92, an early 92.





Doing the positraction clutch plate update #632 will result in a much more tail happy car. Many people don't like or can handle that much oversteer.


Ring gear bolts #155750 don't seem to exist anymore. ARP 203-2802 are readily available.

Last edited by Brian; 02-19-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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post #11 of 23 Old 02-19-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
This is a great carrier with all of the diff guts included! Phil is a pleasure to deal with, as well!
155099R DIFFERENTIAL (CARRIER) UPGRADE : Ricambi America


That looks like a very interesting unit but it uses a Torsen type differential gear set up. In some app's that is just the thing but not so sure for a TR. I think it will become very tail happy. Torsens act to all the world like a spool when torque is applied but turn free without torque. Ingenious design but not without its problems. The off road racers were all over them when they came out but early on many were self destructing because so much internal stress was developed and the gears were breaking etc. Many problems were overcome but makes me wonder how long will a trouble free life span be? Because of the cars weight distribution and tire size the diff has a very tough life in the TR.


I would really like to drive one to see the impact on handling dynamics and see them on the road for quite a few miles before jumping on the band wagon. As you know I have pretty big misgivings about the other product at this point so the Torsen unit is of interest to me but not so much I am going to start installing them.


Once I have finished installing the forged units I have on the shelf I am out of the TR differential business for the foreseeable future.
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-19-2014, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Brian- Thanks for the insights. My WAG is just the best I could do with available data, so we just need a data point or two (trans and serial numbers) around the change to nail down the specifics.

On the forged differential carriers, will leave that to you experts. That was an old post of mine that started this thread and I do not know who asked me something that triggered the thread and posting some really old tech bulletins.

Torque sensing differentials have not enjoyed universal acceptance so there had to be a few flys in the ointment somewhere.

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post #13 of 23 Old 02-19-2014, 09:16 AM
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Fascinating comments ! Thanks to all of you spreading your competence !

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post #14 of 23 Old 02-19-2014, 10:45 AM
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Fascinating comments ! Thanks to all of you spreading your competence !
+1

Very impressed of your knowledge!

Interesting how serial numbers seem to be played with in all manufacturing.

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post #15 of 23 Old 02-25-2014, 03:35 PM
 
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Quote:
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. As you know I have pretty big misgivings about the other product at this point so the Torsen unit is of interest to me but not so much I am going to start installing them.

Once I have finished installing the forged units I have on the shelf I am out of the TR differential business for the foreseeable future.
Brian - apologies if I had missed this in one of your earlier posts, but may I ask what the "misgivings about the other product" are please? Just curious as I have done a pre-emptive upgrade of the diff carrier with one of the Newman units.

Thanks
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post #16 of 23 Old 02-25-2014, 03:45 PM
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The Torsen diffs, like my Audi have are excellent, when you have good traction and the diffs can figure out what is happening. Unfortunately, when you have no traction, they tend to go open and really mess with the vehicle dynamics. For example, My Audi in snow with Summer tires, completely worthless death trap. I can't throttle steer that thing at all. My Audi in snow with Blizzaks however, I can drive it completely sideways at 40mph without hesitation.


They hold up well in the Audi applications as far as handling power. But, they don't have the weight bias issues a TR does, nor is it a new application. They've been in use for over a decade in that application.


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post #17 of 23 Old 02-25-2014, 04:19 PM
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The Torsen diffs, like my Audi have are excellent, when you have good traction and the diffs can figure out what is happening. Unfortunately, when you have no traction, they tend to go open and really mess with the vehicle dynamics. For example, My Audi in snow with Summer tires, completely worthless death trap. I can't throttle steer that thing at all. My Audi in snow with Blizzaks however, I can drive it completely sideways at 40mph without hesitation.


They hold up well in the Audi applications as far as handling power. But, they don't have the weight bias issues a TR does, nor is it a new application. They've been in use for over a decade in that application.


The early information on those was that they were Torsen Gleason type but David looked into it and that was evidently incorrect information provided by the distributor. They are a conventional spider gear design.
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post #18 of 23 Old 02-25-2014, 05:41 PM
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Probably a better idea. As you said, people find enough ways to get into trouble as it is. They should hold up well then, time will tell though as always.


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post #19 of 23 Old 03-16-2014, 07:19 AM
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[QUOTE=Brian;365674]
I have TR512 86815 here right now. It has a May 91 production date, engine #11 and trans #43 yet it is a 93 model year car. This particular car is equipped as a 93 but was built 2 years earlier.
QUOTE]

Brian, are you sure about that? This number fall in the 1990 production. Why would it be a 1993 512TR? There are so many differences between the 2 models. Hard to believe for me. Can you confirm with pictures?
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post #20 of 23 Old 03-16-2014, 07:27 AM
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Brian, I checked in Ferrari database and it is listed as a PROTOTYPE car and is a 92(N). Now it make sense to me but prototype cars I think can't be considered like nomal production.

86815 512TR Prototype 92 Rosso Corsa/Nero LHD US ZFFLG40A9N0086815
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