F50 engine smoothness comparison - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 24 Old 03-11-2014, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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F50 engine smoothness comparison

I had a comparison chance to idle 2 different warmed up F50 engine next to each other and compare the rev-up in standstill situation. Interestingly, one engine was smoother and the other sounded rougher. On one, the chain and wheels behind the tub were felt directer, rougher and therefore a little louder "rolling", the other was less prominent accustically. Dampening of the cabin was identical. From experience of mine I believe to savely say that it's different again from the other 2...somehow inbetween. Interesting as both have been freshly serviced, checked and approved.
As always, none one seems exactly equal/identical to another.
Probably no news to our specialists out there ?!

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post #2 of 24 Old 03-11-2014, 09:00 AM
 
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Unless I am mistaken earlier cars were fitted with no or little insulation between cabin and engine compared to later models which had an ever so slight improvement in drivability noise, and spine rattle through your back.
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post #3 of 24 Old 03-11-2014, 09:25 AM
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As always there is serviced and then there is serviced. Also mileage makes a big difference.


The F50 engine was never intended to be a 100,000 mile engine. The cam drive system particularly. Chain, sprocket, bearing wear is a big problem when they get some mileage.
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post #4 of 24 Old 03-11-2014, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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Those have been both below 20' k examples. Understand about different service quality, but both serviced from the beginning by the same company.
What would you rate a possible main difference in quality when servicing a F50 ?
Or otherwise asked, on what would you personally put high emphasize on when checking good service quality on normal maintenance intervals ?
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post #5 of 24 Old 03-11-2014, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yellowf50 View Post
Unless I am mistaken earlier cars were fitted with no or little insulation between cabin and engine compared to later models which had an ever so slight improvement in drivability noise, and spine rattle through your back.
Thats correct, but in this case both have been insulated in the usual mid-to-late series.

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post #6 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 12:28 AM
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One thing is the Plenum with its Butterfly-Discs. After some time they are out of syncro and need readjustment and the O-Rings between the Plenum and Throttle Bodys. Usually nobody does that, as it is very time intensive (don´t ask, why i know that..).

After I done that, the F50 run so much better with lot less bonanza effect while cruising.

To readjust You need to adjust some bowden cables that are hidden somewhere under the Plenum.

And also very important is, if the Battery has been connected just prior to the ride or is connected permanentley.


Had they both the same tires? And Tire Pressure?
We now have Semi Slicks on the F50 and the road noise is much noisier than befor.
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post #7 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 12:47 AM
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And also very important is, if the Battery has been connected just prior to the ride or is connected permanentley.
That's a surprising one. If you use a trickle charger there should be no difference in voltage delivered, in my mind. Is that not correct?


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post #8 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 01:27 AM Thread Starter
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One thing is the Plenum with its Butterfly-Discs. After some time they are out of syncro and need readjustment and the O-Rings between the Plenum and Throttle Bodys. Usually nobody does that, as it is very time intensive (don´t ask, why i know that..).

After I done that, the F50 run so much better with lot less bonanza effect while cruising.

To readjust You need to adjust some bowden cables that are hidden somewhere under the Plenum.

And also very important is, if the Battery has been connected just prior to the ride or is connected permanentley.


Had they both the same tires? And Tire Pressure?
We now have Semi Slicks on the F50 and the road noise is much noisier than befor.

Was sind das "Butterfly Disks", wo befinden sich diese ? Danke !

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post #9 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 01:35 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m1076 View Post
One thing is the Plenum with its Butterfly-Discs. After some time they are out of syncro and need readjustment and the O-Rings between the Plenum and Throttle Bodys. Usually nobody does that, as it is very time intensive (don´t ask, why i know that..).

After I done that, the F50 run so much better with lot less bonanza effect while cruising.

To readjust You need to adjust some bowden cables that are hidden somewhere under the Plenum.

And also very important is, if the Battery has been connected just prior to the ride or is connected permanentley.


Had they both the same tires? And Tire Pressure?
We now have Semi Slicks on the F50 and the road noise is much noisier than befor.
The 2 cars have been connected permanently on the battery charger. It was no driving just reving when warm in standstill condition, so no tyre pressure Argument. Thanks for the Info, very interesting. Everyday lots to learn !

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post #10 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 01:41 AM Thread Starter
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Oh yes, I imagine that the "roll-noise" of semislicks with that 335 size is bigger. I still have the Michelin Pilot on it, very happy with it and probably a good "inbetween".

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post #11 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
That's a surprising one. If you use a trickle charger there should be no difference in voltage delivered, in my mind. Is that not correct?


Onno
We keep the main switch on and connect a CTEK Charger. Problem is, that the ECU will need some time to get all sensors right after connection to the battery. Somewhere was a Procedure posted for the Bosch ECUs for restarting. If You just apply Voltage and start the engine, some sensors are not calibrated to the ECU and it is running with "spare" values.

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Was sind das "Butterfly Disks", wo befinden sich diese ? Danke !
Hallo Rolf,

Das sind Drosselklappen im Plenum. Je eine rechts und links bei den Einlässen nach den Luftmassenzählern. Meine Erinnerung war falsch, diese sind nicht über Seilzüge verbunden, sondern über Gestänge.

Dennoch sollten die Drosselklappen der einzelnen Zylinderbänke auch synchronisiert werden! Das war bei uns mächtig schief. Dann die Droselklappen im Plenum.


Ferrari used two Discs in the Plenum to change the capacity. With the Discs open, 6 Cylinders share one Plenum. Discs closed and 3 Cylinders get 1/2 of the capacity. This is to smoothen the torque curve and increase the drivability.

I was wrong with the bowden cables! They are connected with rods.

First syncronise the right and left cylinderbank and than check the adjustment of the Buterfly Discs.

A good setting should make the engine smooth and strong!

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post #12 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 01:52 AM
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The 2 cars have been connected permanently on the battery charger. It was no driving just reving when warm in standstill condition, so no tyre pressure Argument. Thanks for the Info, very interesting. Everyday lots to learn !
Ah ok, was under the impression that "rolling" noise was from the wheels.

After reading it a second time, now get it that You meant the cam chain gear.
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post #13 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 02:58 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by m1076 View Post
We keep the main switch on and connect a CTEK Charger. Problem is, that the ECU will need some time to get all sensors right after connection to the battery. Somewhere was a Procedure posted for the Bosch ECUs for restarting. If You just apply Voltage and start the engine, some sensors are not calibrated to the ECU and it is running with "spare" values.

Hallo Rolf,

Das sind Drosselklappen im Plenum. Je eine rechts und links bei den Einlässen nach den Luftmassenzählern. Meine Erinnerung war falsch, diese sind nicht über Seilzüge verbunden, sondern über Gestänge.

Dennoch sollten die Drosselklappen der einzelnen Zylinderbänke auch synchronisiert werden! Das war bei uns mächtig schief. Dann die Droselklappen im Plenum.


Ferrari used two Discs in the Plenum to change the capacity. With the Discs open, 6 Cylinders share one Plenum. Discs closed and 3 Cylinders get 1/2 of the capacity. This is to smoothen the torque curve and increase the drivability.

I was wrong with the bowden cables! They are connected with rods.

First syncronise the right and left cylinderbank and than check the adjustment of the Buterfly Discs.

A good setting should make the engine smooth and strong!


Perfect information thanks. Just out of interest with your info at hand, I talked with the chief mechanic of that Ferrari dealership and he said that this was exactly readjusted and the measurment of the adjustment was optimal on both after adjusting it. He also mentioned the fact of a "Gestänge" instead of the Bowden cable.

Just interesting to see and learn. Besides we never heard of different "series" within that Little production of 349 (except for the US and non-US cars), however what do we know, maybe there have been different series or slight adjustments over the production process, especially with Italian's at work..... ;-)
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post #14 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 03:04 AM Thread Starter
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Wie hast Du rausgefunden, dass Deine Drosselklappen (Zylinder und Plenum) nicht adjustiert waren ? Hatte der Wagen keine Kraft/Schub und "rumpelte" oder andersweitige Feststellungen ?




Vielen Dank für Deine sehr interessanten Ausführungen !

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post #15 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1076 View Post
We keep the main switch on and connect a CTEK Charger. Problem is, that the ECU will need some time to get all sensors right after connection to the battery. Somewhere was a Procedure posted for the Bosch ECUs for restarting. If You just apply Voltage and start the engine, some sensors are not calibrated to the ECU and it is running with "spare" values.
Ah, understood. Thanks.


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post #16 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 07:12 AM
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Run cycle needs to be used if the battery disconnect switch was turned to off. Otherwise it will take several drives before the Motronic DMEs learn and set all the trims correctly.

I need to write that up as a document because the question gets asked so frequently.

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post #17 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 08:32 AM
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Run cycle needs to be used if the battery disconnect switch was turned to off. Otherwise it will take several drives before the Motronic DMEs learn and set all the trims correctly.

I need to write that up as a document because the question gets asked so frequently.




Unless there is something very wrong Motronic 2.7 does that in about 2 minutes.


2.7 is a simple reliable and dumb system. Battery being turned off does very little. If it really is an issue it is only because something is very wrong and the system is trying to correct for it.
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Wie hast Du rausgefunden, dass Deine Drosselklappen (Zylinder und Plenum) nicht adjustiert waren ? Hatte der Wagen keine Kraft/Schub und "rumpelte" oder andersweitige Feststellungen ?




Vielen Dank für Deine sehr interessanten Ausführungen !
I was fixing the leaks all F50s had between the Plenum and the Throttle Bodies (I used slightly thicker O-Rings). While doing this, i though, lets check the Butterflys. They were so far out of syncro, that one was open about 5° and the other not possible to open complete as the travel was out on the first.

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Unless there is something very wrong Motronic 2.7 does that in about 2 minutes.


2.7 is a simple reliable and dumb system. Battery being turned off does very little. If it really is an issue it is only because something is very wrong and the system is trying to correct for it.
The problem is, that You fill Your error memory and after some time, it will show "slow down" without any need for it. Each time You disconnect and reconnect it will lose some sensors/calibrations and at some point, it will lose to much.
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post #19 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 01:44 PM
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Brian- Yup, I was thinking of the later Motronic DMEs, from 5.2 up.

Hey, got a question for you. Early 612s came with Motronic 7.1.1 and so did the Enzo. Did early 599s have 7.1.1 or were they all 7.3.2 like the later 612s?

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post #20 of 24 Old 03-12-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by m1076 View Post


The problem is, that You fill Your error memory and after some time, it will show "slow down" without any need for it. Each time You disconnect and reconnect it will lose some sensors/calibrations and at some point, it will lose to much.






Uh, no.
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