Secondary air system on a 599 - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 14 Old 08-17-2014, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
 
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Secondary air system on a 599

hello,

I wanted to remove my secondary air system on my car 599 HGTE in order to:

Remove the exhaust gas going in my intake (reduce power when hot and add deposit on the intake)
As a subsiliary win some weight....

Before doing that I wanted to know if some one already did it?

I know the secondary air sytem is used to reduce the polution when cold, also to reduce the gas temperature when exhaust gas is too hot on the cat by added a exhaust gas percentage on the intake, can be more than 20% and this is my worry.

May be I am oblige to remove the secondary cat (anyway this is my wish) to reduce the heat on the exhaust.

Any thinking about that..

Thanks
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post #2 of 14 Old 08-17-2014, 11:20 AM
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Patrick- Removing the secondary air system will cause all kinds of problems resulting in check engine lights and other undetermined affects. Removing the primary cats, that everybody calls secondary, will not have much affect except on emissions. The 599 has precats in each of the 4 exhaust headers and that is where the emissions sensors are located, so no check engine light from removing the primary (secondary if you are selling bypass pipes) cats. Just pollutes the atmosphere.

The GTO actually went to only two exhaust headers with the primary cats in them and deleted that second set of cats. Those GTO cats, however, are larger and more efficient than the precats in the 599.

Taz
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post #3 of 14 Old 08-17-2014, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkart78 View Post
hello,

I wanted to remove my secondary air system on my car 599 HGTE in order to:

Remove the exhaust gas going in my intake (reduce power when hot and add deposit on the intake)
As a subsiliary win some weight....

Before doing that I wanted to know if some one already did it?

I know the secondary air sytem is used to reduce the polution when cold, also to reduce the gas temperature when exhaust gas is too hot on the cat by added a exhaust gas percentage on the intake, can be more than 20% and this is my worry.

May be I am oblige to remove the secondary cat (anyway this is my wish) to reduce the heat on the exhaust.

Any thinking about that..

Thanks

Patrick-
Terry told correct,
599 have the same design of the exhaust system like the 575 (4 pre cats + two cats), if you remove the two cats, you no have check engine lights on, the sound increase, burble appear and the power little bit increase ....
I did the same on my 575.
In really, what do you would find, sound or power?

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'
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post #4 of 14 Old 08-17-2014, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the answer,

not exactly my question we can manage to do not have engine light the ecu is detecting the pressure on the circuit you just have to keep it and no light. (I test it)

my worry was on the exaust temp and the side effect long term onto the 4 cats we will call primary
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post #5 of 14 Old 08-17-2014, 03:09 PM
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None. Those pre-cats are designed to warm up fast and that is why they put them in the headers. A little less back-pressure could cause them to take a little longer to warm up, but that is about it. Just makes for a dirtier exhaust, but the system does not see that.

Taz
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post #6 of 14 Old 08-18-2014, 03:50 AM
 
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Also of note, secondary air systems in modern computer controlled vehicles are not what they once were. In modern cars they are only engaged during low load part throttle conditions and are generally fed by an electric air pump vice the cumbersome and heavy belt driven units of the 70's. Removing the system will not yield you a noticeable increase in power, as it is already deactivated at wide open throttle. I think there are also better ways to realize the weight savings you are looking for.

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post #7 of 14 Old 08-18-2014, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkart78 View Post
hello,

I wanted to remove my secondary air system on my car 599 HGTE in order to:

Remove the exhaust gas going in my intake (reduce power when hot and add deposit on the intake)
As a subsiliary win some weight....

Before doing that I wanted to know if some one already did it?

I know the secondary air sytem is used to reduce the polution when cold, also to reduce the gas temperature when exhaust gas is too hot on the cat by added a exhaust gas percentage on the intake, can be more than 20% and this is my worry.

May be I am oblige to remove the secondary cat (anyway this is my wish) to reduce the heat on the exhaust.

Any thinking about that..

Thanks
I am not familiar (at all!) with the 599 but are you sure about the Exhaust Gases Recirculation (EGR) ?
As on other Ferrari models, I can see the hardware for fresh air injection in the headers, but no EGR valve and no way to re-inject exhaut gases in the intake.
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post #8 of 14 Old 08-18-2014, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thank Taz,

B308 you're right not the best way to save weight but around 10kgs (egr x2 motor plus cabling). The main idea is to avoid exhaust gas in the intake.

It's safer also onto Maserati 4200 engine there is some engine damage due to the ceramic cat defective, some ceramic cells back to the engine by this way...Intake gas temp lower

At the end cleaner as there is no dust from the exhaust in the intake valve stay like new.
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post #9 of 14 Old 08-18-2014, 11:21 AM
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Unlike EGR, the Secondary Air system injects air straight from the atmosphere into the exhaust to react with the raw fuel present during cold running enrichment, to accelerate the heating of the catalysts cores and get them up near ideal temperature for efficiency, for cleaner emissions during the enriched start up phase.


If you're running a cat-less race exhaust and have no need to pass emissions testing, the system is of no use. The system it's self though has no measurable effect on actual engine power output. Just gross emissions output when warming up.


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post #10 of 14 Old 08-18-2014, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
Unlike EGR, the Secondary Air system injects air straight from the atmosphere into the exhaust to react with the raw fuel present during cold running enrichment, to accelerate the heating of the catalysts cores and get them up near ideal temperature for efficiency, for cleaner emissions during the enriched start up phase.


If you're running a cat-less race exhaust and have no need to pass emissions testing, the system is of no use. The system it's self though has no measurable effect on actual engine power output. Just gross emissions output when warming up.

Josh,
perfect explanation!

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
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post #11 of 14 Old 08-18-2014, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkart78 View Post
Thank Taz,

B308 you're right not the best way to save weight but around 10kgs (egr x2 motor plus cabling). The main idea is to avoid exhaust gas in the intake.

It's safer also onto Maserati 4200 engine there is some engine damage due to the ceramic cat defective, some ceramic cells back to the engine by this way...Intake gas temp lower

At the end cleaner as there is no dust from the exhaust in the intake valve stay like new.


The air injection system is not how the destroyed precat parts get back into the engine. Also, removing the air injection system will increase the possibility of failure of the precats. As others have said prior, the air injection system has no EGR function.


You are getting some very bad advice from someone who is not familiar with how the cars systems work.


This entire thread reminds me of the old days when people took out and plugged those terrible PCV valves and promptly blew out main seals and pan gaskets.
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post #12 of 14 Old 08-18-2014, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkart78 View Post
Thank Taz,

B308 you're right not the best way to save weight but around 10kgs (egr x2 motor plus cabling). The main idea is to avoid exhaust gas in the intake.

It's safer also onto Maserati 4200 engine there is some engine damage due to the ceramic cat defective, some ceramic cells back to the engine by this way...Intake gas temp lower

At the end cleaner as there is no dust from the exhaust in the intake valve stay like new.
Patrick ,
in this picture is shown the 599 engine, in the middle of the two pre cats you can se the secondary air valve, the weight of this system is low.
Personally i no would remove the secondary air system, but you can do an important improvement of exhaust system .... price of more work ....
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Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'
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post #13 of 14 Old 08-19-2014, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the answer, foolishly I was thinking there is some return in the intake like the EGR I don't no why.

thinking two second is evident....

Last edited by superkart78; 08-19-2014 at 08:51 PM.
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post #14 of 14 Old 08-20-2014, 05:56 AM
 
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I think this is just terminology confusion between AIR--Air Injection Reaction, also known as "secondary air injection"-- and EGR--Exhaust Gas Recirculation.

The combination of soot from the EGR and oil vapors from the PCV system coats the inside of an intake manifold with sticky grime.

What the EGR is supposed to do is reduce peak combustion temperatures so that the engine produces fewer oxides of nitrogen (NOx) in the exhaust stream. NOx is very difficult to catalyze, so it's easier for a manufacturer to install an EGR system than a catalyst to deal with the NOx.

The EGR also improves gas mileage a tiny bit (maybe 1 mpg?) by reducing pumping losses due to low intake manifold pressure.

The EGR is only operating at low and medium loads and never at WOT or idle.
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