599 engine mods cam timing - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 27 Old 03-25-2014, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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599 engine mods cam timing

Hello,

I plane to modified my 599 engine in order to upgrade the power. The long term program is to try to reach the 800Ps starting from 620...long way to go.

First step already done (easy):

adjust the intake change filter and delete the second cat (easy) 30 to 40ps

second step:

Camshaft and timing

Third step :

Change piston 94mm over 92mm to reach 6262cc+ compression ratio+injector like FXX engine and treatment DLC +plasma to reduce friction.

As it's so difficult to find some technical data and special parts, the idea is to try to use upgrade parts from ferrari V12 new engine F12 :

as an exemple: cam spring, camshaft...

Valve onto F12 engine is the same only spring is different same as 458 as the engine run higher RPM.

The question is : Does anyboby already try to fit some F12 parts on 599, cam spring is ok but cam shaft looks possible? piston after change linear size to 94? Any comments.

Does anybody knows the cam timing on both engine?

Thanks for all input
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post #2 of 27 Old 03-25-2014, 04:00 PM
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Patrick- On the newer cars like the FF and F12, most of the tech data is on Ferrari's MODIS computer system that only Ferrari dealerships can access. You need to make some good contacts at your local dealership and see if they would be willing to print the applicable pages from 599 and F12 technical data.

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post #3 of 27 Old 03-25-2014, 04:34 PM
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Good luck; it sounds like a very interesting project. Are you working with a good tuner and machine shop for this work?

You might want to look at some head porting too. I would at least flow the heads to see how they do. Finding power on an engine that is finely tuned already is going to be difficult.

You may also want to investigate standalone tunable ECU's in order to unlock some power that Ferrari chose not to for reliability or emissions reasons. Once you have an ECU that is powerful enough to tune the variable camshafts on that engine, you can do some amazing things.

We have a member here called mk_e, who has done a lot of tuning simulation work and machine work on his V12. He may have some good ideas for you.

Please keep your thread updated with the mods that you do.

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post #4 of 27 Old 03-25-2014, 05:21 PM
 
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These engines appear to have large ports and valves already. I wonder if there is opportunity for gains by valve timing only? Of course that leads to ECU changes which you will want to be able to do anyway. ;-)
(It's good that you are far away because I have cam grinders etc and could see diving in to this)
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post #5 of 27 Old 03-25-2014, 07:49 PM
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On the Superamerica, Ferrari used the same cams as the 575M, but advanced them 6 degrees, but I am sure the curves in the Motronic DMEs were modified, too. Cam timing on Ferraris is usually pretty tame.

Taz
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post #6 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 12:59 AM
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Taz, since the 599 engine has variable valve timing (VVTi in the Toyota world and VANOS in the BMW), it's a whole new ballgame with tuning. Toyota brought out the first single variable camshafts in '91, and the first dual system in '95 so it's been around awhile but it's only been in the last 5 years that aftermarket ECU's have been developed that have the power to tune them.

The guy I've used for years for tuning my supercharged V8's (who is also Rhys Millen's tuner ) was able to coax an additional 40 lb-ft of torque out of a turbocharged Nissan V8 by carefully remapping the variable cam timing tables. He's a degreed mechanical engineer and has worked for several of the high end ECU companies, so he well understands the internal dynamics of reciprocating engines.

Being able to tune the cam timing on the fly, along with the usual fuel & ignition tuning has been a real game changer in the tuning world, but it also upped the ante for the tuners and it separates the real ones from the wannabes, which is a good thing.

With an inexperienced tuner and an interference engine, tuning the cams can also be a game of Russian Roulette......

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post #7 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 03:03 AM
 
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F140 (V12) and F136 (V8) are very similar inside. Head flow, intake manifolds and camshafts are well matched to each other for specified power. I have flowed and ported cylinder heads and measured cams on V8's. Main areas to adjust for more power are head porting, 1 mm larger exhaust valves, slightly more valve lift, higher compression ratio and better exhaust manifolds without pre-cats. Another alternative is to use solid valve lifters that will get slightly more timing. 130-133 hp/liter is within reach. Connecting rods are the weak link otherwise original parts are a safe. Difference between 92 mm and 94 mm cylinder bore equal 2-300 rpm difference for peak hp. Example, 600 hp at 8800 rpm with 92 mm cylinder and 600 hp at 8500 rpm with 94 mm if everything else is the same. Rgds///Thomas
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post #8 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 05:22 AM
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Short of adding forced induction, I doubt Ferrari left any meaningful HP on the table...In terms of dollars spent versus HP gain, this would be (in my opinion) the most cost effective solution. Peak HP means very little in terms of daily useable performance....

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post #9 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 06:02 AM
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David, I would agree with you on the forced induction, but I think there's also some HP to be found in NA trim, as it's a given that Ferrari had to compromise their OEM tune to meet emissions, and to keep from ruining the cats.

If Patrick is (re)building this engine for track purposes, then I'm sure he can find some power from the variable valve timing system, assuming he goes to an aftermarket ECU that has variable cam timing capability, and he employs a tuner that knows how to do it.

The Toyota VVTi system offers a range of about 45 crankshaft degrees of adjustable timing on the cams, so the intake can be retarded down low for better torque, and advanced up high for better peak HP. Overlap and duration (to a degree) are also adjustable. About the only thing that isn't adjustable is lift.

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post #10 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 07:12 AM
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To make gains that large, I'd go in assuming you'll have to:
- throw in a set of custom made cams
- port the heads
- fabricate a custom intake and larger throttle bodies
- you can probably use the stock headers, but remove all cats and most of the mufflers

You'll have better bang for the buck with removing the cats, installing a lightened flywheel and tuning the ECU. You won't hit 800hp, but the car will be much more lively and aggressive and you won't spend the next 3 years testing and building up an engine... 5-7 years out F12's should come down quite a bit in price and those have 730hp right out of the box...
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post #11 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 10:26 AM
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Matching the ECUs to the changes would be the biggest challenge.

Connecting rods on the 599 were changed to steel from the titanium ones on the Enzo, so they should be plenty strong enough for anything done to the engine.

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post #12 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for your answer all

I am playing actually with my solidworks for the intake and plane to simulate the engine with dynomation.

Variable cam range and real original data as to be known, no one have data from the cam timing ?

for the rev easy to use the F12 spring GTO have the same as FF and F12 same as 458.

C311 as right Ferrari is using same strategy within the V8 and V12 we can see easaly the link between the F12 and the 458.
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post #13 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 04:22 PM
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599 engine mods cam timing

David and Terry, I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate how you go the extra mile to share your knowledge and insights.

This looks to be a very interesting project!
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post #14 of 27 Old 03-26-2014, 05:19 PM
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Patrick, as you probably know Ferrari really enjoys charging a premium for their hard parts. You will probably be better served to send your 599 pistons and rings to Mahle for duplication in the oversize you want. With the camshafts, I would send them out for regrinding as opposed to buying factory cams as well. To get near the numbers you want, everything will need to be special made to specification for this particular application.


You will likely need to increase stroke as well to get more displacement. Stroking is typically considered the safer way and the most effective way to increase displacement as opposed to over boring the cylinders too. Once you have that data and some cylinder head flow data from a flow bench and port measurements, you can spec out your custom camshaft grinds too.


The old engines used to have another 30-40% left in them after a complete reengineering, a couple failures on the dyno and then race use, not street use. As Cribbj said, you will definitely need an absolute expert tuner to tweak everything right to the edge to capture all that power.


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post #15 of 27 Old 03-27-2014, 03:50 AM
 
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F136 seem to perform best with all cams set at 109 degree lobe center. VVT is only used on low to mid rpm. OEM parts for F136 and F140 are a lot cheaper than for older engines thanks to Maserati to keep the assembly numbers up. For example any part for a BMW M-Engine cost more. Rods go oval in the big end on the earlier type. 458 rods are stronger. Stock intake manifolds can handle much more than stock. I tried that in the flow bench with the intake bolted to the head. Stock valve springs are ok to 9K. Rgds///Thomas
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post #16 of 27 Old 03-27-2014, 04:00 AM
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A couple of questions for the OP:
-Street or race car?
-Budget?
-Timeframe to achieve stated power requirements?

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post #17 of 27 Old 04-01-2014, 04:55 PM
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Whats with the plenum nose cones on the F12?

Looks cool,,I know theres more to them than that.
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post #18 of 27 Old 04-01-2014, 08:52 PM
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Resonators for a slight overpressure in the intake tract. Free, very, very mild supercharging.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

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post #19 of 27 Old 04-24-2014, 02:25 PM
 
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I'll add this bit, the mechanical end of parts is going to be the easiest part of the project. I don't mean that it will literally be easy as it's going to be a PITA but the ECU and CAN integration are going to be near impossible. I've been trying to work with a couple ECU companies on being able to tune and modify the engine tables on the new Ferrari and Lamborghini models, so far it's a no go. The CAN keeps all the ECU's and subsytems in the loop and with integrated chassis and engine management, forget it. So unless you've got an in with Bosch or piles of cash laying around to work with a Bosch authorized tuner who also happens to know and understand Ferrari's, this is the road block to proper modification on the new models.

As time moves on it will become doable, to what extent and how easy ???

Standalone isn't an option either unless you plan on cutting out the chassis ECU's and have no control on them, i.e. non-functioning.

As to modifications to the engine, i.e. larger displacement etc. Mfg have cut everything down to the limit for materials on what is needed. The majority of new engines have just enough material for the designed goal that going bigger can and will ruin them. Liners are thing of the past with plasma deposition of material, can't bore and re sleeve as there is no material to do so. structural integrity of these new engines is right at the limit.

Crude mfg of yesteryear allowed for major reconstruction, today with computer modeling and FEA it's done right to the min required to manage costs and get more per unit of material. Also the benefit of lighter and faster.

Not to rain on the parade but that's the face of automotive engineering today.

Best bet for gains would be having the ability to properly tune via reprogramming the ECU but that is a massively daunting task.
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post #20 of 27 Old 04-24-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smg2 View Post

Standalone isn't an option either unless you plan on cutting out the chassis ECU's and have no control on them, i.e. non-functioning.

.
The motec M1 units can do most anything you heart desires.....if you're willing to pay.

I'm pretty sure you could even program it to output fake engine sensor signals to keep the stock ECU happy and servicing all the chassis stock with no check engine while the motec actually runs the engine if you wnated to save needing to re-tune the chassis stuff your self.

...but point taken it's no longer and easy task to hotrod anything.
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