456M free sight to the crank - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 02:51 AM Thread Starter
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456M free sight to the crank

Looks like I'm in for a new winter project:

Last night I had an enigine failure on my 456MGT again. I'd suppose the rod of cylinder 12 hat no more fun working in the dark. So it went off through the sidewall with very impressive BANG. :-) Luckily nothing seroious happened as I was still accelerating at about 280km/h on the German Autobahn. Obviously the sloven at the previous shop didn't replace the rod as they had to replace two sleeves and the pistons caused by a stuck valve caused by the worn guides. Now just one of that two rod broke. OK, I did some 16Tkm since the replacement.

Please where do I find instructions on engine removal for the 456M or perhaps 550 or 575?

Btw. engine was still running after the BANG. No message in the display.

(picture done with my iphone laying in the oil under the car - I will post better ones soon.)
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Last edited by mehl; 10-04-2013 at 03:33 AM. Reason: turned photo upright
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post #2 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 03:28 AM
 
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Ouch. That looks ugly.
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post #3 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 03:40 AM
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Ouch.....very sorry to hear this Christian.

My friend Ron F. had a liner failure in his 550 last year and did a nice thread detailing the engine removal here: 550 Engine Removal

He's a DIY'er and did it all without a lift, although he did of course have an engine hoist, jackstands and hydraulic floor jacks.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #4 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 06:24 AM
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Christian- Sorry to hear that. Must have been some pretty severe piston to valve contact when the valves were stuck. Those soft valve guides are biting more owners now.

Will you rebuild or are you looking for a used engine? The block can probably be welded closed as long as water passages were not punctured.

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post #5 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 07:01 AM Thread Starter
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I don't think the valves were stuck now. But we will see.

All valveguides were replaced 3,5 years ago after a sticky valve with reaspirating the debris. However the shop replaced all 48 guides, two pistons and sleeves, but they didn't replace the rods. One of the rods of the replaced pistons broke. (and no, I don't want to do anything with the shop, it's too long ago anyway - it's just to get better in future) This enginge should be able to do several minutes of full load on the autobahn. If it's only good for 130km/h I could use a smart. :-)

I do have the old pistons somewhere. I'll post a pic. Perhaps the pros can have a look if they would recommend replacemnet of the rod at that amount damage to the piston.

No water went off. Welding should be possible. The decission for a rebuilt or exchange is pending. I could not see how much of the block, pan and back covers went off. I'll see when the engine is out. I'm not in a hurry, as the car has limited licences plates from March to October. So the goal is to get it ready unitl 1 March 14.

If I exchange the engine I have to find out about the valveguides. There are several 456M engines and several cheap, not too worse crashed, low km cars on the web. It's quite attempting to buy a whole car, as every tiny litte sparepart is quite expensive at the 456.Ok, usually the 20kEuro bonnet is crashed. But I don't need a bonnet, I need the content below :-).

And of course I will not destroy my bonnet with the exemption that a piston comes out to the top waving the white flag.
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post #6 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 08:30 AM
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Can't see from the pictures specifically how it failed but I wouldn't blame the rod, I'd blame the assembler.

Don't fix that one. Save your heads and try to find a good used motor from a wreck and install your heads. Sell the left over heads to someone like T Rutlands. He'll rebuild them and put them on the shelf to sell on an exchange basis.
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post #7 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you Brian. Very good idea to change the heads.
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post #8 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 10:45 AM
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Brian- What rebuilding action would cause that kind of failure? Or are there a bunch of them? Good idea on saving the rebuilt heads. Assuming it was a machine shop that did that work.

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post #9 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Brian- What rebuilding action would cause that kind of failure? Or are there a bunch of them? Good idea on saving the rebuilt heads. Assuming it was a machine shop that did that work.


Without seeing the rod that is hard to say. Rod bolts may have been improperly installed or retorqued too many times.


Having been doing this a while I never underestimate peoples ability to screw stuff up. It is the primary reason I try real hard to buy cars and motorcycles that need everything rather than those that have had everything done.

I am doing yet another major on a TR that has only had me servicing it since new. It is so easy.

The big job I just finished was a 328 that I have never seen before. What a mess. Everything that has ever been touched was a mess.

I call it "failure by act of human intervention"
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post #10 of 51 Old 10-04-2013, 01:32 PM
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Brian- My techs grump about that, too. Engines leaking everywhere from poor jobs sealing the gaskets, carbs completely out of synch, valves that have never been adjusted, fluids that have never been changed, clutches with no lining left, bearings shot from aux belts being overtightened, etc. My guys hate leaks and I have never had one of their seal jobs leak.

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post #11 of 51 Old 10-15-2013, 12:56 AM Thread Starter
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Endoscope

I endoscoped all 12 cylinders through the plug hole. YES, no valve hit. Sot hte heads are OK.
I could move the piston in cylidner 12 the piston easily downwards with a long screwdriver.

There is a little coke in cylinder 12. Not shure if this can be from the short time the engine was running on 11, as there could not be any aspiration without rod. Perhaps cyl 12 was not running correct for any reason?
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post #12 of 51 Old 10-15-2013, 01:00 AM Thread Starter
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engine mount

Sorry, I can't find the thread with the discussion on the updated engine mounts. I vague remember that there is the possibility to use the 575 mounts? Where is that tread? Which mount is recommended for the 456M?
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post #13 of 51 Old 10-15-2013, 02:39 AM
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I did this upgrade to the 456M that I just completed the heads on. You'll need the 575 mount and well as the 575 lower spacer. See the 575 parts diagram on the Ricambi site. Ferrari 575M Parts : Table 1 - CRANKCASE The upper spacer washer (sits on top of the current 456 mount) will not be used. (In the picture, the engine has not been lowered into position nor has the mounting hardware been tightened...)
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post #14 of 51 Old 10-15-2013, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mehl View Post
Sorry, I can't find the thread with the discussion on the updated engine mounts. I vague remember that there is the possibility to use the 575 mounts? Where is that tread? Which mount is recommended for the 456M?
-> 1041-456-550 Motor Mounts.pdf

Please be advised that, beginning with Chassis Number 123924 a new rubber bushing and retaining
washer has been introduced. This new rubber bushing is a technical improvement to help eliminate
vibrations at 160-180 KPH (99-112 MPH) which may be felt from the rear wheels.

-> http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/mo...unts-your.html


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post #15 of 51 Old 10-15-2013, 03:54 AM
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I would say definitely use the 575 mounts but you'll also want add a 575 engine to make the mounts most effective.
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post #16 of 51 Old 10-15-2013, 07:12 AM
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Mark- Would need a hood scoop to fit a 575M engine in there. Note there is one on the 550 and 575M for the taller, dual length intake.

Taz
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post #17 of 51 Old 10-15-2013, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you David for the exact advice how to.

Scusa me: And thank you bay of course.
(That iphone display is small :-( )

Last edited by mehl; 10-17-2013 at 01:36 AM.
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post #18 of 51 Old 10-17-2013, 12:56 AM Thread Starter
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One of the pistons of the previous review. The rod was not changed
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post #19 of 51 Old 10-17-2013, 01:25 AM Thread Starter
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good news & Range Rover bimotore

I found and bought a replacement engine from wrecked 115561. The valve guides are very light golden bronze not that copper tone that my guides had. Was a beloved car. The hoses in the valley (and several others) are new silicone ones. No leaks anywhere. Just he lower right cover is missing because it had a light crack.

And I must admit the engine is very clean compared to mine. I'm alway in the fear of flooding some electrical connectors when cleaning the engine.

Watch out for the beast with orange eyes sitting in the back of Range Rover bimotore
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Last edited by mehl; 10-17-2013 at 01:34 AM.
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post #20 of 51 Old 10-17-2013, 02:29 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
I would say definitely use the 575 mounts but you'll also want add a 575 engine to make the mounts most effective.
I tried to find out if it would be a fit. I photoshopped the two engine pcitures together - not really perfect. But good enough to see difference in the intake, rod and inner pan. If the drawing is correct....

Is there a similar drawing from the 599 engine?

Red: 550, Blue 456M
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Last edited by mehl; 10-17-2013 at 05:51 AM.
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