F430 vs Scuderia cam difference? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 99 Old 04-27-2013, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
 
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F430 vs Scuderia cam difference?

Hi, I have checked duration and lift of the Scud & Challenge cams. Would anybody know what difference if any at all to the standard F430? I measured intake 304 degrees (11 mm lift) and exhaust 294 degrees (10.1 mm lift) directly on the cams (zero lash). I dont know if this match the factory specs because I have not found any. I have also flowed the Challenge cylinder heads if anyone is interested. //Thomas
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post #2 of 99 Old 04-27-2013, 05:39 PM
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I have also flowed the Challenge cylinder heads if anyone is interested. //Thomas
I'm very interested in flow numbers!

I can't help with the cam number though

Last edited by mk e; 04-28-2013 at 11:33 AM.
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post #3 of 99 Old 04-28-2013, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
 
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F430 Challenge = 277 CCFM intake and 187 CCFM exhaust at max cam lift. We tried with more lift but flow is barely any better. As a reference, flow is the same as a tested Mercerdes 2.5-16v DTM (yes that's the saloon racecar) cylinder head. F430 Ch head tested with original carbonfiber intake and a 200 mm long pipe (41.5 mm inner dia) on the exhaust. We will try later with some small porting in the area around the intake valve guide and a 3-angle on the intake valve seat. Will check again with Pipemax SW but with stock ports & cams and 12.0:1 CR, peak power is suggested at 8800 rpm with 4308cc or 8500 rpm with 4500cc.

For the budget minded, Maserati 4200 head ports and valves are the same but cam bearings are 26 mm on Ferrari and 30 mm on Maserati. Also the bolt spacing for exhaust manifolds are 3 mm closer together for Maserati. Ferrari intake manifold and cam covers fit. Head gaskets are the same. I have researched the bottom end differences too. It's not easy but not impossible to put a flat plane crank in a 4200 block.

I'm looking for someone who can help me with a few dimensions in a F40 cockpit?
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post #4 of 99 Old 04-28-2013, 11:42 AM
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F430 Challenge = 277 CCFM intake and 187 CCFM exhaust at max cam lift. We tried with more lift but flow is barely any better. As a reference, flow is the same as a tested Mercerdes 2.5-16v DTM (yes that's the saloon racecar) cylinder head. F430 Ch head tested with original carbonfiber intake and a 200 mm long pipe (41.5 mm inner dia) on the exhaust. We will try later with some small porting in the area around the intake valve guide and a 3-angle on the intake valve seat. Will check again with Pipemax SW but with stock ports & cams and 12.0:1 CR, peak power is suggested at 8800 rpm with 4308cc or 8500 rpm with 4500cc.
Is that at 28" H2O pressure? That is a lot of air.... the TR heads I'm working on are at about 270 and I thought that was doing pretty good.

Generally what you get with more lift isn't more flow......it's more flow sooner and longer because the valves get to max flow lift will the cam is on the accel part of the ramp, so you can slam them to max flow, then the extra lift is for slowing the valve down and turning it around, then you can slam it shut again
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post #5 of 99 Old 04-28-2013, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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I'll ask the guy who do the heads. I have a flow graph that I can scan. It show what you wrote. Valves are 37.8 mm & 31 mm with 6 mm shafts. Hydraulic tappets. Intake ports are 55x35 mm.
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post #6 of 99 Old 04-28-2013, 01:16 PM
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Valves are 37.8 mm & 31 mm with 6 mm shafts. Hydraulic tappets. Intake ports are 55x35 mm.
BIG valves and port, wow!

That makes my HUGE 34 I, 28E valves look not so huge
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post #7 of 99 Old 04-28-2013, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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IMO V12 sound better, more torque, same hp but 40 kg heavier. I would need 2600 mm wheelbase for a V12 but I have 2450 mm (308+GTO body) It's ok for this V8. The intake manifold is behind the rear window but it's taller than the engine cover.
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post #8 of 99 Old 04-28-2013, 04:49 PM
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So you're building a GTOsih 308?

I think Bert (bert308) whos got a GTOish 308 is in Sweden....maybe I'm wrong and he's been really quite lately.

If you move the gas tanks a 12 will fit I think.....I'm pretty sure 1 got built in TX, USA that way.

The 430 engine will be great though!

We're going to need pics!

I'm going to have to weight my engine at some point. Clearly it weights more than a V8, But I think it's lighter than the V8 with the supercharger it's replacing....I'm not 100% sure though
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post #9 of 99 Old 04-28-2013, 05:31 PM
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TR head port,,can you share

An itb efi mk e ported tr is a monster,,whats the scoop? Thanks,rege
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post #10 of 99 Old 04-29-2013, 01:31 AM Thread Starter
 
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So you're building a GTOsih 308?

I think Bert (bert308) whos got a GTOish 308 is in Sweden....maybe I'm wrong and he's been really quite lately.

If you move the gas tanks a 12 will fit I think.....I'm pretty sure 1 got built in TX, USA that way.

The 430 engine will be great though!

We're going to need pics!

I'm going to have to weight my engine at some point. Clearly it weights more than a V8, But I think it's lighter than the V8 with the supercharger it's replacing....I'm not 100% sure though
Bert is in Netherlands. I have been in contact with him earlier this month.

A 550 V12 is 226 kg
F430 V8 is 184 kg
My engine is not transverse like 308 and I have a 6-speed manual. No need for a bulge on the firewall with the F430 as the waterpump is on the right side of the engine. I think it's the same on the 599 V12 but that one is 210 mm longer. Maybe a small 250 V12 would fit with GTO wheelbase. I have a F40 frame and the parts for it came off a truck from Modena, without going into more details. Most bodyparts are OEM except for some NLA parts that came from a GTO kit. Roof is a combo of F40 and GTO kit. Wheel hubs are Mondial 3.2. Brakes Gallardo (Brembo 8 & 4 piston). Wheels BBS Motorsport forged type E28 3-piece. 9 & 12x18"
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post #11 of 99 Old 04-29-2013, 03:45 AM
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Bert is in Netherlands. I have been in contact with him earlier this month.
Thats right, I knew Sweden didn't sound right.


Quote:
A 550 V12 is 226 kg
F430 V8 is 184 kg
Good info, thanks.

Quote:
My engine is not transverse like 308 and I have a 6-speed manual. No need for a bulge on the firewall with the F430 as the waterpump is on the right side of the engine. I think it's the same on the 599 V12 but that one is 210 mm longer. Maybe a small 250 V12 would fit with GTO wheelbase. I have a F40 frame and the parts for it came off a truck from Modena, without going into more details. Most bodyparts are OEM except for some NLA parts that came from a GTO kit. Roof is a combo of F40 and GTO kit. Wheel hubs are Mondial 3.2. Brakes Gallardo (Brembo 8 & 4 piston). Wheels BBS Motorsport forged type E28 3-piece. 9 & 12x18"


We need to see some pics! It sounds awesome!

The Tx car I mentioned uses TR heads on a billet V block, much like the 400/TR combo I'm building......no idea how they got it to fit as I never saw pics.
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post #12 of 99 Old 04-29-2013, 04:31 AM Thread Starter
 
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I think I have seen somewhere a GTO build with an early 2 cam V12 or maybe it was a mockup?

My nephew have a Merc 7.3 V12 in his workshop but no car for it. It's so big and heavy.
His old retired boss have a Rolls Royce Merlin V12 in his garage that he start up when he's bored.

Yes you're worthy now get up
Pics, yes why not but when I'm past the point of no return or how you say it?
Right now everything are stored in boxes or packaging wrap at the second level of the workshop.
The word mezzanine, entresol or something else in english?
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post #13 of 99 Old 04-29-2013, 05:27 AM
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I think I have seen somewhere a GTO build with an early 2 cam V12 or maybe it was a mockup?
I heard rumors of such things but I've never seen any pics.



Yes you're worthy now get up
Pics, yes why not but when I'm past the point of no return or how you say it?
Right now everything are stored in boxes or packaging wrap at the second level of the workshop.
The word mezzanine, entresol or something else in english?[/QUOTE]

Yes mezzanine is a good word.....now get the part off it and get past the point of no return (that is exactly how we say it)

Then pics

What 6 speed do you have fo rit?
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post #14 of 99 Old 04-29-2013, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
 
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I heard rumors of such things but I've never seen any pics.



Yes you're worthy now get up
Pics, yes why not but when I'm past the point of no return or how you say it?
Right now everything are stored in boxes or packaging wrap at the second level of the workshop.
The word mezzanine, entresol or something else in english?
Yes mezzanine is a good word.....now get the part off it and get past the point of no return (that is exactly how we say it)

I have spent a lot of time in USA but conversation barely got past "Do you want large fries with that?"

I'm waiting for some small lasercut parts and a few CrMo tubes from some local sources. Then I only need to find the metal frame that hold the quad lights below the bumper. They have not been available for at least 10 years. I can lasercut new if I know how to draw them. I have the Carello lights. Found them on a Fiat.

Then pics

Yes yes maybe domani domani

What 6 speed do you have fo rit?[/QUOTE]

A 360 with the 100 mm shorter rear cover. It's got the mechanical diff. I need to change to the F430 main housing or cut and weld on the shorter and smaller bellhousing. I also want to change to 3.80:1 CWP. I have not decided on driveshafts. Maybe I do custom shafts with GKN motorsport CV's? F40 & Mondial 3.2 use the same shafts. 360 & F430 diff is 355 mm wide flange to flange. F40 is 275 mm(?) but I dont know how wide the 308 diff is flange to flange.

Last edited by C311; 04-29-2013 at 07:34 AM.
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post #15 of 99 Old 05-16-2013, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
 
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Is that at 28" H2O pressure?

Yes it is.
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post #16 of 99 Old 09-17-2013, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
 
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Is that at 28" H2O pressure?

Yes it is.
After some small mod's to the intake port, flow is up from 277 to 312 ccfm.
Exhaust mod's to follow.

With 117% VE in Pipemax SW the estimate is 590-610 hp at 8700 rpm with original Scud/Challenge cams.

Rgds/Thomas
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post #17 of 99 Old 09-17-2013, 11:10 AM
 
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This reminds me Mark, Ive of a chunk of alloy here for you to test flow also...

Brian,

If you think you can't you wont, if you think you can, you will
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post #18 of 99 Old 09-26-2013, 03:39 AM
 
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I'm looking for someone who can help me with a few dimensions in a F40 cockpit?[/QUOTE]

What do you want to know? I can measure it and let you know.
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post #19 of 99 Old 09-27-2013, 02:16 AM Thread Starter
 
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I'm looking for someone who can help me with a few dimensions in a F40 cockpit?
What do you want to know? I can measure it and let you know.[/QUOTE]

Great! I'm looking for the positions of the seat rails. They are angled to the center of the cockpit. The marked edge is where the floor is 20 mm / 0.79" higher. Measure with the interior parts or directly on the frame. Rgds/Thomas


Last edited by C311; 09-27-2013 at 02:28 AM.
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post #20 of 99 Old 10-22-2013, 02:48 AM Thread Starter
 
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After some small mod's to the intake port, flow is up from 277 to 312 ccfm.
Exhaust mod's to follow.

With 117% VE in Pipemax SW the estimate is 590-610 hp at 8700 rpm with original Scud/Challenge cams.

Rgds/Thomas
Got the data for exhaust ports. With new seat angle + porting. Up from 187 to 200 ccfm

I'm looking at the 4.8 stroker kit vs just +2 mm bore for 4.5 liter. Difference would be 30 hp but peak torque +20%
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