Ferrari Cam Timing Methods? - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 20 Old 04-06-2013, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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Ferrari Cam Timing Methods?

Mark or anyone who has played with Ferrari's cams & cam timing, have you ever set the cam timing using the "lobe center" method in lieu of the "lift at TDC" method?

On a new engine, I prefer setting cam timing by the valve opening & closing @ 0.050" lift method, however Ferrari doesn't publish how much lift they use to define their IO/IC and EO/EC events, and if they did, it would still have to be adjusted for wear. And IMO, the lift @ TDC method doesn't account for wear, either.

So if maximum lift of 9.0mm should be at 110 degrees ATDC (for example), I'd measure the degrees at 8.0mm of lift on both ramps and split the difference for the lobe centers and adjust to that, which, I would hope would be as or more accurate for a worn engine than the single point of lift @ TDC method.

Thoughts?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #2 of 20 Old 04-06-2013, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
Mark or anyone who has played with Ferrari's cams & cam timing, have you ever set the cam timing using the "lobe center" method in lieu of the "lift at TDC" method?
Yes, that's how I do it. All the ferrari grinds I've looked at are symmetrical so the lobe center method is by far the fastest and more accurate way to do it IMO.
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post #3 of 20 Old 04-06-2013, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Mark, yes, I was going to check the ramp profiles on these cams to be sure, but assuming they're symmetrical, I too think the lobe center method is more accurate for an engine with possibly worn valve train components.

Picking a single point to measure the lift, especially when that point is on a very steep edge of the ramp just doesn't seem a very good way of doing it, although there are lots of arguments for & against both methods.

Have you ever determined what lift Ferrari uses when they quote their IO/IC & EO/EC figures?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #4 of 20 Old 04-06-2013, 08:34 PM
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John- There are significant differences in the way the cam timing is checked between the 550 WSM and the 575M WSM. For one, cylinders 1 and 12 are used instead of 1 and 7 (makes perfect sense because those are the two front cylinders), and intake cam lift is checked at 18 deg ATDC (piston lift 2.43 mm). But they still both use cam lift.

Still sounds like the lobe center method would be more accurate, and the images of the 575M camshafts look perfectly symmetrical.

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post #5 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 02:54 AM
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Have you ever determined what lift Ferrari uses when they quote their IO/IC & EO/EC figures?
It's weird...you need to set the lash to zero then check at 1mm if I recall right.
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post #6 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 08:17 AM
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Mark- Hydraulic lifters on the Maranellos.

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post #7 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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It's weird...you need to set the lash to zero then check at 1mm if I recall right.
Well I've got hydraulic lifters in this 550 engine and I have a hunch some are leaky and have bled down, so I'm probably SOL for setting the cams based on IO/IC & EO/EC events.

While I still need to check the ramp profiles to confirm symmetry, I'll probably go ahead & set the cams according to the lobe centers and check the lift @ TDC and see where it falls out. At this point, I haven't taken my old cam belts off yet, and am just checking where the engine timing is now with 4 year old cam belts. It would appear the last timing job was done by lining up the assembly marks @ TDC and calling it good. And it also looks like TDC was defined the Ferrari way, where as soon as the piston reached maximum height, that was TDC, rather than putting TDC in the middle of the dwell, although truthfully, on this engine, it appears there's only about 1.5 degrees of crank travel for the full dwell @ TDC.

So setting TDC with the piston stop method, it looks like my lobe centers for the right hand bank are coming in at 109 for the intake and 110 for the exhaust vs the calculated values of 111 for the intake and 109 for the exhaust. This jives with my lift @ TDC measurements where the intake cam was further off than my exhaust, and both were advanced from where they should have been.

Interestingly, my cam belts are very loose, and I would have expected the valve timing to be slightly retarded rather than advanced......

Here's a touched up timing diagram that sorta shows where I am (borrowed from Comp Cams):
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'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #8 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 10:06 AM
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John- If it makes you feel any better, Superamerica cams are identical to 575M cams, except they are advanced 6 degrees for a bit more power. Same exact Motronic ECUs (same part number) as late 575Ms.

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Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

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post #9 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
John- If it makes you feel any better, Superamerica cams are identical to 575M cams, except they are advanced 6 degrees for a bit more power. Same exact Motronic ECUs (same part number) as late 575Ms.
Taz, I saw where you mentioned that in my other thread, but I didn't understand it, because advancing the cams "advances" the power, ie brings it in earlier, so I'd expect the SA to have more low end than the 575, but less top end, unless something else was done.

Conversely, retarding the cams, will retard the power or bring it in later, so the top end will be stronger.

Do you have horsepower or torque curves for both the SA and 575 that you could post? It would be interesting to overlay them.

It would also be interesting to know what the "window" of advance & retard is on these engines before valves meet pistons.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #10 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
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I managed to map the profile of the intake cam before my grandkids came over for a visit today, so I'll probably do the exhaust cam tomorrow. The ramps do appear to be symmetrical, although there's just a bit of wear or perhaps hysteresis showing up on the really steep points.

I mapped the lift for every 10 degrees of crank rotation, then I drew a line at the rated 226 degree duration point on the curve, and that occurs at about 0.6mm (0.024") of lift, or almost exactly half of the industry norm of 0.050". Hmmm.

Edit: I then drew a line at the .050" lift point to see what the duration is at the industry standard, and it's only 210 degrees, so this is a pretty mild cam.

Maximum lift for this cam is 9.10mm.

(N.B.: All measurements were taken at the lifters, not the cam lobes themselves)
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'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #11 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 02:33 PM
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John- No, I do not, but the SA is rated at 540 hp and the 575M at 515. There was a boost in compression ratio (11.2:1 vs 11:1) and a different valve seat angle and shorter matching valves, but ignition/injection was identical.

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post #12 of 20 Old 04-07-2013, 06:39 PM
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I know the tricks to time V12 two cam

Im old,,,,,they can be timed like razors and the fussing is endless like tuning a guitar,,but 2 cam V12 rip IMHO the best rip ,,,,and its all in the cam and ign timing,,,
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post #13 of 20 Old 04-08-2013, 02:21 AM Thread Starter
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Reg, I'm old too, and when I can't sleep, I go out in the garage & play with the Italian lady......

Mapped the exhaust cam around 3AM this morning and noticed a couple of interesting points:

1. There is more asymmetry in the exhaust cam ramps than the intake cam. This may be due to my fixturing, however, as my magnetic base needs to be positioned "just so" to get the dial indicator's pointer on the tappet without rubbing on the cam or the lifter bore.

2. The "advertised" duration of 226 degrees fell out at 0.6mm of lift again. Same as the intake cam.

3. The duration @ 0.050" of lift fell out at 210 degrees again, same as the inlet.

4. The overlap at the advertised duration points looks more like 7-8 degrees than the 6 it's supposed to be, but this is probably due to my intake cam being more advanced than the exhaust.

5. Max lift on the exhaust was 9.10mm, same as the intake cam.
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'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #14 of 20 Old 04-08-2013, 04:24 AM
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They look like the same cams to me.......and seem to be missing about 30 degrees of duration???



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post #15 of 20 Old 04-08-2013, 04:41 AM Thread Starter
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You had me wondering if I mistakenly used the Intake data for the exhaust curve, but I double checked and it's two different sets of data, and I know I moved that doggone magnetic base (and have the blood blisters to prove it )

Don't understand your comment about the missing 30 degrees of duration? Do you think the calculated 226 degrees of duration isn't correct?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #16 of 20 Old 04-08-2013, 04:44 AM
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Don't understand your comment about the missing 30 degrees of duration? Do you think the calculated 226 degrees of duration isn't correct?
No, no..I was thinking if you sent the cams to someplace like Web Cam they could help you find the "missing" 30 degrees.

Last edited by mk e; 04-08-2013 at 05:21 AM.
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post #18 of 20 Old 04-08-2013, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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No, no..I was thinking if you sent the cams to someplace like Web Cam they could help you find the "missing" 30 degrees.
Ahhhh, gotcha..... Yea, but I don't know if they'd reprogram my Motronic 5.2 ECU's so I could continue to pass emissions, not fry my cats, and still keep the CEL turned off

But it's tempting isn't it? I was thinking a good start might be a set of 456 cams, which have 14 degrees more duration on the intake side, 18 on the exhaust, and 3 degrees more LSA than the 550's cams. Apparently the 456 is the real hotrod, at least where cams are concerned, and the 550 is only a pretender.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #19 of 20 Old 04-08-2013, 08:56 AM
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Ahhhh, gotcha..... Yea, but I don't know if they'd reprogram my Motronic 5.2 ECU's so I could continue to pass emissions, not fry my cats, and still keep the CEL turned off .
What is it all of a sudden with you guys getting all practical on me?


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Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
But it's tempting isn't it? I was thinking a good start might be a set of 456 cams, which have 14 degrees more duration on the intake side, 18 on the exhaust, and 3 degrees more LSA than the 550's cams. Apparently the 456 is the real hotrod, at least where cams are concerned, and the 550 is only a pretender.
hmmmmmmmmmm....that gives me an idea......
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post #20 of 20 Old 04-08-2013, 10:13 AM
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John- The 456 had wilder cam timing to try and eke out some high rpm hp with an inadequate intake system. When the 550 came along, the dual length intake got the high rpm hp and higher redline without having to use as radical cam duration. The cam profile also probably helped out the hydraulic lifters at the higher redline. The 575M is similar and the Enzo/599 had VVI and other tricks to allow them to get to 8300 rpm with hydraulic lifters and what is still probably relatively mild cam duration.

Like Mark said, extra hp should be easy, but might require some other changes to match.

Wish I had bought all that tech data for the 550 GTC now.

Taz
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Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
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