308_Wheels, Brakes and Suspension - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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308_Wheels, Brakes and Suspension

I deliberated a bit between posting this part of the never-ending modifications in my other thread (308 Engine Rebuild_EFI, Pistons, Cams, etc.) or creating a new one altogether. Ultimately, it's tough to keep track of stuff in one huge thread and this is phase 2 of my projects, so a new thread won out.

At this point, I'm primarily in the planning phase and of course always open to feedback and input!

I've had a few posts in the other thread on these topics, but to summarize I used all of my ebay bottom-feeding skills to pickup a set of 360 wheels on the cheap and a set of 430 brakes that were similarly well-priced. The goal is to get the wheels, brakes and suspension onto my car by next Spring.

So, here we go...
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post #2 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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The 360 wheels are aluminum bits:
18" x 7.5" front 215/45 R18
18" x 10.0" rear 275/40 R18
I picked them up back in March of last year, as you can see in post #523 of the other thread.
http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/pr...istons-27.html

Some guys are running four fronts because the rears are a pain to fit, but I'll need all the rear tire I can get once the supercharger is installed. So, I'm probably going to have to follow in Mark's footsteps and move the rear shock mount inwards for clearance.

Anywho, to keep the rolling circumference close to what the 308 has originally, I'm leaning towards Michelin Pilot Super Sports:
225/40 R18 front
275/35 R18 rear
Michelin*Pilot Super Sport
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post #3 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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And that brings us to the brakes. I have to figure out what to use to work with the 430 calipers (and possibly rotors). My gut feeling is that the rotor offset is too different and I'll need custom rotors and hats made up.

The 430 brake specs:
330mm x 28mm
4 piston calipers - 38/42mm pistons
They're sized to work with a 23.8mm power-assisted master cylinder.

The discussion about them started on page 36 of the other thread. There is some great info. To summarize, they are sized the same at all four corners because Ferrari is using the ABS system in the 430 to stabilize the car at higher speeds when more weight transfer occurs. Since I don't have ABS, we'll need different size master cylinders to accomplish the right balance.
http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/pr...istons-36.html
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post #4 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 02:17 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know how to size the master cylinders and I haven't fired up the ol' google search yet to start learning, but I wont have a brake booster anymore so the thought of the brake pedal being too heavy has crossed my mind. I like the weight of the stock pedal, to be honest.

In general, I'm leaning towards Tilton 75-series master cylinders + 600-series balance bar (7/16") + the premium brake bias adjuster. If you click on the full catalog in the following link you can find them on pages 73-80. It's a pdf file.
Products | Tilton Engineering - Innovative, High-Quality Racing Products

Or, here are links at summit as they might be easier to view.
Tilton 75-Series Universal Master Cylinder Kits 75-1000U - SummitRacing.com
Tilton Pedal Assembly Balance Bars 72-260 - SummitRacing.com
Tilton Premium Remote Bias Adjusters 72-408 - SummitRacing.com

Thoughts?
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post #5 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 03:56 PM
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Bret for the brakes, Chris Morse might be the man to talk to. Hes on the other side though.
He went all out with big brakes. I think custom work too. He did 360 wheels too but he narrowed the rears.
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post #6 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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Bret for the brakes, Chris Morse might be the man to talk to...
Thanks, man! I emailed Chris last year and he was kind enough to share with me how he setup his parking brake using 360 e-brake calipers and offer the CNC file to make them. Those calipers are costly though. He went all out and definitely has an awesome system - I think he has F50 front rotors? My setup wont be quite as sophisticated as his, but it should still work really really well and wont cost as much.
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post #7 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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One more thing I forgot above... I'm planning on going with a mechanical line lock. Lighter, simpler and less expensive than modifying aftermarket parking brake calipers (or those from the 360/430). The dual master cylinders and manual trans should be very safe overall in case of an unexpected loss of pressure, and the original parking brake was hopelessly inadequate anyway.

Jack found this one and posted it in my other thread. It would be really cool to mount this and the remote bias adjuster where the ashtray went originally.
Jamar Hydraulic Park Lock For Brakes Not To Be Used As An Emergency Brake On Street Vehicle 1/8 NPT
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post #8 of 80 Old 12-31-2012, 10:52 PM
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Bret a thought...with the additional rubber on the road how will it impact on the suspension?

With the greater contact area you will have higher loads being transmitted throughout the suspension attachment points so will you need to fit a stronger type bush on the control arms?

The big brakes with the 360 wheels and fat rubber will certainly give it that finishing touch.


p.s. good you did not sell
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post #9 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 04:50 AM
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.


p.s. good you did not sell

That's right. Wasn't it December something??
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post #10 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 05:10 AM
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Bret on the rear if you want to keep those fat rear rims and not narrow them, the best thing to do is, you got to get some pricey NASCAR shocks.

A gentleman named Jim from the other side had contacted me and we kept in touch for a while. He was a former Ford designer and was doing his 308 with 360 wheels. He wanted to keep them original too. At the end he found those NASCAR shocks that fitted.

I'll try to see if I can find some pictures or a name.



Oh BTW, yours truly has to work today.
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post #11 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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I'm glad I didn't sell it too, and glad I didn't have work today!

I haven't delved too much into suspension yet, although I researched this afternoon about bushings until I was blue in the face. Mark is running Ohlins STJ shocks, which would be pretty tough to beat. I'm not sure that I'll notice the benefits of a higher quality shock on the street, so I'll have to put some thought into Ohlins, Bilstein, etc.

For inner bushings, I'm leaning towards Energy Suspension urethane deals. They're part number 13.3101 in their catalog (page 41). 30mm. It works for both front and rear A-arms.
http://energysuspension.com/assets/f...on-catalog.pdf

For the rear outer bushings, I'm probably going to just rebuild what is in the spindle right now. I'll have to look at them once they're apart, but they should be teflon lined. If not, they can be purchased from Superformance.

I'll probably get sway-bar bushings and new ball joints from Superformance.
308 SUSPENSION Superformance ferrari dino ferrari v6 ferrari v12 specialists 308 246 206 fiat dino 355 328

And new tie rod ends and steering rack bushings from Superformance as well.
308 STEERING Superformance ferrari dino ferrari v6 ferrari v12 specialists 308 246 206 fiat dino 355 328

That's where I am right now at least with suspension. Man, that's a lot of reading.
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post #12 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Back to brakes... I was doing some reading last night... For master cylinder sizing, I'll need to know the pedal ratio before being able to calculate the right size MC (or at least how much pedal pressure I'd have to apply). I'll have to poke around under there and see what makes more sense. Some folks have run dual MCs out into the spare tire compartment, but it might be possible to mount them where the brake booster is right now. That would tidy the package up a bit.
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post #13 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 06:21 PM
 
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You might find the following video interesting and useful regarding the basic goals of suspension set-up for a car with the weight biased toward the rear:
The Science of Speed: 2011 Porsche 911 GT2 RS - YouTube

I know you also have a BMW M3. Personally, I really like BMW’s approach to brakes, where brake rotors are designed as a low-cost wear item. You might try to fit an easily replaceable stock steel disk rather than use custom-made disks. Obviously this relates to the type of driving you like to do, but aggressive brake pads can cut through rotors in just a few track days. The bottom line is that if you can lock the wheels anytime you need to, you have enough brake. All the rest is cosmetics.

Take all my comments with a grain of salt, since I don’t (yet) own a Ferrari (http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/me...ing-308-a.html)

Last edited by Brian A; 01-01-2013 at 06:35 PM.
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post #14 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 07:57 PM
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Brian- Not true. The question would be how many times you can max brake without fade. You can easily lock the brakes on a C1 Corvette, but that does not mean those drum brakes are very good.

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post #15 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 08:12 PM
 
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Quote:
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Brian- Not true. The question would be how many times you can max brake without fade. You can easily lock the brakes on a C1 Corvette, but that does not mean those drum brakes are very good.
Oops. Sorry for being unclear. I meant what you said. I should have mentioned the heat thing.
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post #16 of 80 Old 01-01-2013, 10:52 PM
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Very interesting, Bret!

I must try and stick around to follow this as I probably need to do something on my 308's bushings and brakes eventually.

Good luck!

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Capo

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The good news: I'm the pilot

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post #17 of 80 Old 01-02-2013, 03:05 AM
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Bret here are the shocks I use on all my Ferrari's, they are mainly for street rods but work very well, they are adjustable bound, rebound and ride height and the last time I bought them in 2004 they were just at $1200 for all four including springs of your choice. If your going to do the neoprene suspension then my recommendation is do it all at the same time, its a nasty job and you'll need a box of band aids handy before you start. I of course can't leave anything alone and have changed my brakes and suspension long ago, the shocks and the suspension bushings made all the difference in the world in handling, and I recommend this to everyone as a project. As for the brakes yes bigger brakes with floating rotors are great if your tracking the car and they look great with a bigger wheel, but remember bigger wheels and larger rotors mean more reciprocating mass. If I had to do it all over again I would get a stand alone anti skid system off some GM car and transfer the system to the Ferrari. Maybe there is a system in the new Ferrari's that a guy can convert to an old one but anti skid is the way to go. You can use your stock master cylinder if you put one of these valves in, I have 15 inch all around this is valve works. Also I put the manual line lock on the dash and took the parking brake off the center console, it works great. I think these guys who sell this say not to be used a emergency brake to cover their ass, it works great as an E brake, the only problem I have seen is when you set it you press on the brake and push in the valve then release the brake and the valve stays pushed in, you must exceed the pressure you set it at to release, so if you set it while the car is running and the brake booster is helping you then when the car is not running you really have to stomp on the pedal to release it and believe me the car will not move when its set I have tried.

Aldan Eagle Shock Absorbers | Carson California | All Parts Made In America
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post #18 of 80 Old 01-03-2013, 05:10 AM
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Brett,


you might take a look at my thread. I also started with a f360 (=f430?) set but found the disks way to heavy so i ended up with the two pcs hat/disk set of superformance in combination with the 360 callipers. I use a proportioning valve and it works great.
I also replaced the handbrake for an in line hydraulic unit working on the rear callipers so no need fao extra e brake setup callipers


BTW For shock i use the alden eagles as well!

currently a '87 euro 328gts, a '83 euro 308gts and 2x 308gtb. (and still some old Audi's)
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post #19 of 80 Old 01-03-2013, 05:45 AM
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Brett,


you might take a look at my thread. I also started with a f360 (=f430?) set but found the disks way to heavy so i ended up with the two pcs hat/disk set of superformance in combination with the 360 callipers. I use a proportioning valve and it works great.
I also replaced the handbrake for an in line hydraulic unit working on the rear callipers so no need fao extra e brake setup callipers


BTW For shock i use the alden eagles as well!
[email protected], post the link to your thread, I would like to see it too, looks like we are on the same page there. I can't remember what spring weights I used, I think they were 350 lbs all the way around. What did you use? Proportioning valve is great too, getting it adjusted could be a thrill.
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post #20 of 80 Old 01-03-2013, 06:11 AM
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http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/pr...-trackcar.html

this is it. It mentionned the brakes briefly but i could give more explanation if needed.




Now as we are talking about suspension as well. On the other forum there was a groupbuy of a set of havier swaybars for the 308. Addco is making them currently and I did order a set. If interested take a look at the other forum.
BTW groupbuyprice was reasonable: US$ 425 for the complete set ( F/R) incl bushing.

currently a '87 euro 328gts, a '83 euro 308gts and 2x 308gtb. (and still some old Audi's)
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