3.4L project - Ferrari Life
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 339 Old 10-28-2011, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
3.4L project

Hi everyone. Thought I would make it known what I am up to here and throw some pics up.

The idea is to install a 360 crank (79mm stroke) into a 2v 308 block. A little modification is required, but to my knowledge it's not a ton as the crank spins freely in the 308 block on its own. The liners were bored and honed with torque plates to 83mm. Final capacity is just a bit over 3.4L.


Upgraded cams from Cat Cams in Belgium with 10.75mm lift and around 248 dur @ .050. I went with advice from Steve Dermijian and opened the intake valve size to 44mm as this is what he did for Nick's engine. I also used more of a nail head style valve which also reportedly helps things quite a bit. Lastly, the intake valve seats were replaced with larger OD and ID seats and the bowls were blended to accomodate the step in the ID the new valve seat creates. Flow is reportedly 12% better yet I am still awaiting the flow sheet to confirm this. I guess most of the gain is made over .150 lift with great flow present at .350-.400 lift.


The new cams use a radical slope and we collectively believed the stock valve seat pressure was not up to the task of handling this. The stock springs use around 60lbs seat pressure with 200lbs at only .350 lift (new cams are (.425 which would put stock springs at about 230lbs which is too high IMO)) from the seat, meaning these springs have a very high spring rate. I am going with a spring which uses a bit less rate yet is a longer spring so I can have a bit more seat pressure yet about the same nose pressure. Seat pressure is set to be approx 85lbs with 220lbs at the nose, and the springs of course have plenty of room before coil bind opposed to the stock springs which would really be pushed about to capacity if I used them with this cam. These new springs are also a good 20g lighter each.

Pistons are done from JE (10.5:1 with gapless top rings)
all machine work is completed (heads, block, line bore, flywheel surface, rods resized)
new clutch
new aluminum radiator
new high torque starter
ARP rod bolts


I will probably go to injection later, but for now I will stick with carbs and run ignition timing from a 36-1 trigger wheel and a simple CPU (MJ unit) until I swap to injection.



Case halves are going to be sealed up using the Porsche 911 crowd sealer of choice, namely 3bond 1194, and then Elring's Curil T for pretty much everything else.



Anyway, just waiting for the crank to show up on the boat from South Africa. The machine work can then get cracked out by our very own maistro of the lathe and Bridgeport, Mark, then of course I can throw this thing together.
Attached Images
                           
ferraripilot is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 339 Old 10-28-2011, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Pic of the radiator I designed and had put together. It's a crossflow design which I like far more than the stock downflow design. I didn't want to compromise the look under the front hood too much so this pretty much drops right in which the exception of having to cut about .5" from the rear portion of the radiator mounting saddle to accomodate for the extra wide radiator core. Fits perfectly otherwise and looks fantastic. About 41% more cooling fin area yet the tanks on either end do no hold quite as much fluid as the stock top and bottom radiator tanks, thus meaning this radiator -which weighs 14lbs- will actually stay lighter than the stock radiator as it's not carrying quite as much fluid.
Attached Images
     
ferraripilot is offline  
post #3 of 339 Old 10-28-2011, 07:09 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
cribbj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Houston
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,200
Cool project! Who made the radiator for you?

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

Maranello Skunkworks Team Member
cribbj is offline  
 
post #4 of 339 Old 10-28-2011, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
I have a fabricator in North Carolina who works with me on them. He does not have a shop where he does this for anyone as he is a private racecar fabricator etc. He is a great welder and made exactly what I needed per the schematic I whipped up, and he has a big 'ol pressure tank he can adequately test them in too. A few other club members actually wanted one a month or so ago so I had a few more made and sent. Actual custom aluminum radiator shops are outrageous regarding pricing for these things regardless of if I draw up the schematic etc.
ferraripilot is offline  
post #5 of 339 Old 10-28-2011, 01:36 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,860
That looks like a fantastic project. A 308 with a lot more reliable power is a wonderful goal.

Nice radiator. They are expensive from the custom fabricators.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is online now  
post #6 of 339 Old 10-28-2011, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
That looks like a fantastic project. A 308 with a lot more reliable power is a wonderful goal.

Nice radiator. They are expensive from the custom fabricators.

I was seriously considering throwing in the towel on a 308 and getting a 355 or 360, but for me they just don't 'do it' like an old GTB. The GTBs just need a good 100bhp more though. I would be very pleased if this reaches 320-330bhp. I believe the parts are there to make this possible now.
ferraripilot is offline  
post #7 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Got the 1-4 head together last night. I *hate* installing valve stem seals on the guides. Even with the correct tool it is difficult as these guides just plain don't have anything that fits them perfectly. Anyway, it's together and it looks good.

Every last one of the new exhaust valves from Si were out of round with one being worse than the rest! The intake valves from Manley were all great except for 1 which was just a hair out. Leak checked 100% sealed. Good stuff.
Attached Images
       
ferraripilot is offline  
post #8 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Oh, and I did a light lap with fine compound to mate the new valves to the freshly cut seats. There seems to be some controversy on whether or not to do a light lap after everything is freshly cut, but I like doing a 3 second fine lap after and they seal really well so I don't see any issue with it.
ferraripilot is offline  
post #9 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 09:02 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
wetpet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chevy Chase, Md
Ferrari Life Posts: 9,567
wetpet is offline  
post #10 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 10:11 AM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
It looks great.

How do you check that the valves are out of round? Do you put them in a lathe and run the dial micrometer against the perimeter of the head?
bretm is offline  
post #11 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 10:16 AM
Owner
 
Granucci's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: far and away
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,197
I so really like what I see going on here: NICE. Will subscribe to this thread too. Love this sort of stuff.

Keep the pics posting

rik

Guide to the Galaxy: Don't Panic
Rik -- LAH !


Current:
Past:
1990 Mondial T Cabriolet SN 86247 : Red/Tan
1995 456 GT 2+2 SN 99987 : Roso Metalizzato [Fer 311/C] & Tan
Granucci is offline  
post #12 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 11:48 AM
Owner
 
a1exander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Johannesburg RSA
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,094
+1.
a1exander is offline  
post #13 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 11:49 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,860
Nice job and my hot rod 67 Corvette had Manley valves. We always lapped the valves/seats for the best seal.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is online now  
post #14 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
It looks great.

How do you check that the valves are out of round? Do you put them in a lathe and run the dial micrometer against the perimeter of the head?
I checked the concentricity for the valves and seats at my local machine shop yesterday. The seats are checked with a simple dial gauge tool which inserts firmly to the valve guide and is then zero'd out and turned in the seat.

I checked the valves in an old collet style kwik-way after coating the facing with dykem. The kwik-way slowly spins the valve and there is a fine grinding stone positioned 45 degrees out. Slowly bring the valve to the stone and if the stone touches part of the valve face but not the other then it is out of round. One of them was really bad yet all the exhausts were out a little. I have now learned to always check any valve like this if it is not pulling good vacuum on the new seat, new valve, old valve, whatever.

Last edited by ferraripilot; 11-01-2011 at 04:50 PM.
ferraripilot is offline  
post #15 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Nice job and my hot rod 67 Corvette had Manley valves. We always lapped the valves/seats for the best seal.
That final 1-3% vacuum difference is in a quick fine valve lap so I found yesterday. The vacuum pump doesn't lie.
ferraripilot is offline  
post #16 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 01:30 PM
Master Mechanic
 
ECSofVirginia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,219
Did you use their replacement grade valves or silver line competition grade parts? I know of a lot of engines that have SI valves in them, without trouble.


ECSofVirginia is offline  
post #17 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Their off-the-shelf silver line for Ferrari valves is the silver line I believe. Their quality of valves is just fine, it's just they were in a hurry to put a face on them which is why none of the faces were but 90-95% correct rather than 100% correct. I will still use them in the future as I am told this sort of thing is not uncommon with every valve manufacturer out there.
ferraripilot is offline  
post #18 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 04:05 PM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferraripilot View Post
...I checked the valves were checked in an old collet style kwik-way after coating the facing with dykem...
Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation!
bretm is offline  
post #19 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 06:47 PM
Owner
 
barcheta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Maryland
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,875
What specifically needs to be done to the 360 crank for it to work properly. Also, can you give an idea as to what kind of cost you're into so far?

Very cool project and I know many of us are looking forward to your test drive posts once you have everything back together.

Current: 85' GTS QV
It's a simple process...... it's just complicated by human beings....
barcheta is offline  
post #20 of 339 Old 11-01-2011, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
ferraripilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Ferrari Life Posts: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by barcheta View Post
What specifically needs to be done to the 360 crank for it to work properly. Also, can you give an idea as to what kind of cost you're into so far?

Very cool project and I know many of us are looking forward to your test drive posts once you have everything back together.

I believe Mark or Dave can answer this question a little better than me, but what I do know is the damper mounting area on the 360 crank is a bit longer and that last journal on the same end is a bit shorter meaning the timing gear ring is not exactly lined up with the 308 timing gears to the tune of 5mm. A 5mm ring needs to be fabricated and placed between the last journal and the timing gear to line the two up. Also, the flywheel mounting area is .050 shorter on the 360 crank meaning either a custom flywheel needs to made or not. It could be that there is enough room created by the stock 308 flywheel that this is not an issue but I will have to find out. I will of course report once I know for sure. A 360 crank does spin freely and is about 10lbs lighter than a stock 308 crank which is definitely not a bad thing

Cost wise, I don't have an exact figure yet but I have an excel spreadsheet tracking all machining costs, parts costs, misc costs and it is over $10k now. Mind you I have done almost all of this myself so that certainly negates any labor rate. I believe Carobu who does this sort of thing gets up in the neighborhood of $25-$30k all in. Their last 3.5L QV engine with electronic injection made 347bhp. Quite a screamer. Replace with throttle bodies and they could see close to 400bhp.

Last edited by ferraripilot; 11-01-2011 at 08:16 PM.
ferraripilot is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale