Designing a modern 275..... - Page 4 - Ferrari Life
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-27-2011, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
That DCT's shift speed is unreal. I assume the 458's box is a derivative of the California's.
I'd love to use the California box, but it's going to come down to how available they are I think. The 456 and up engine are readily available as are the porsche PDK boxes...not so much true with the California box at this point.
mk e is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-27-2011, 07:45 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Bret- The DCTs fitted to the California, 458, and FF are all basically the same Getrag unit with slightly different software packages. Dana Holdings in Ohio is currently in the process of selling Getrag to GKN Driveline.

Taz
Terry Phillips
tazandjan is online now  
Old 08-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Bret- The DCTs fitted to the California, 458, and FF are all basically the same Getrag unit with slightly different software packages. Dana Holdings in Ohio is currently in the process of selling Getrag to GKN Driveline.

Taz
Terry Phillips
Cool. I'd throw my humble two cents that it's the best transmission in the entire automotive market right now (for a performance car). Hearing that 458 WOT throwing a 1-2 upshift last week was enough for me to consider not having kids and saving my pennies instead for the 458 Scuderia (whatever they wind up calling it).
bretm is offline  
 
Old 08-28-2011, 12:32 PM
Administrator
Owner
Elite Member
 
Boxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK & Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 15,131
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
I'm still feeling good about allowing the 456-612 engines. With the weight this thing will have, or maybe I should say won't have, I think a 456 or 550 engine will be plenty but it's hard to pass up a hotter engine if there is one just sitting there

The trans is still my biggest concern I think. I want to keep weight and cost down but I don't want a trans the blows up and to keep with the modern theme I'd like to have an F1 option....... what to do......

Could you use the whole engine/gearbox/transaxle out of the 550?
Boxer is offline  
Old 08-28-2011, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer View Post
Could you use the whole engine/gearbox/transaxle out of the 550?
Absolutely. The 550 manual trans is a great option...maybe a tad heavier than it needs to be but clearly up to the task.

I and personally not a fan of the single clutch F1 gear boxes though so I'd be hesitant to spec the F1 version (did the 550 have that or was it the 575??), they just seem so fragile so I'd like to spec a dual clutch version.

In a perfect world I think the answer would be to grab everything except the engine from the California
mk e is offline  
Old 08-28-2011, 01:08 PM
Administrator
Owner
Elite Member
 
Boxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK & Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 15,131
Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
Absolutely. The 550 manual trans is a great option...maybe a tad heavier than it needs to be but clearly up to the task.

I and personally not a fan of the single clutch F1 gear boxes though so I'd be hesitant to spec the F1 version (did the 550 have that or was it the 575??), they just seem so fragile so I'd like to spec a dual clutch version.

In a perfect world I think the answer would be to grab everything except the engine from the California
It was the 575 that had the F1 as an option. It was a single clutch system.
Boxer is offline  
Old 08-28-2011, 04:08 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Mark- The 575M F1 and three pedal transmissions are identical, as are the clutches. Only the T/O bearings and shifter mechanisms are different. Plus the F1 has a clutch position sensor and an additional angular speed sensor. The 599 and 612 Sessanta and OTO have dual plate clutches to go with their F1 systems, but are otherwise similar to earlier F1 systems. Those dual plate clutches are pretty much indestructible and could be adapted to a Maranello drivetrain, since the 612 and 575M engines are nearly identical. Early 612s used the same clutch as the 575M, so the parts are there.

A Maranello driveline with a shortened torque tube would be a really good match for a 275 that originally had a SOHC/DOHC V12, torque tube and transaxle. A 599 driveline would be even better, but prohibitively expensive. Have seen 550 engines for less than $10K and transaxles for about half that. There may be even better deals out there on the complete drivetrain.

Taz
Terry Phillips
tazandjan is online now  
Old 08-29-2011, 01:21 AM
Administrator
Owner
Elite Member
 
Boxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK & Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 15,131
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
A Maranello driveline with a shortened torque tube would be a really good match for a 275 that originally had a SOHC/DOHC V12, torque tube and transaxle. A 599 driveline would be even better, but prohibitively expensive. Have seen 550 engines for less than $10K and transaxles for about half that. There may be even better deals out there on the complete drivetrain.

Taz
Terry Phillips
I have recently seen a 550 motor and gearbox for sale in the UK for GBP 3k.
Boxer is offline  
Old 08-29-2011, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Mark- The 575M F1 and three pedal transmissions are identical, as are the clutches. Only the T/O bearings and shifter mechanisms are different.
Taz
Terry Phillips
I knew the boxes were the same the F1 versions just seem to have issues with the clutch and the controls....but my only knowledge is from noticing the number of F1 problem threads vs 0 threads about 3 pedal transmissions. I have a lot more confidence in dual clutch set-ups because mechanically things can happen a whole lot slower yet while still providing a faster shift than a single clutch and that just seems good.

I'm going to need to think a bit on this one.

To hit the project weight goals I need to look at every ounce. I know for sure that something like a 550 trans will work and never have a problem, but an early 5sp boxster trans fitted with a 944 torque tube setup is probably 50+ lbs lighter.....but could break if it's really abused and doesn't get me a path to a paddle shift set-up.

I've got to look at size, weight, price of a 575 F1, California DCG and a Porsche PDK and see what makes sense.
mk e is offline  
Old 08-29-2011, 08:28 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Mark- You see all kinds of F1 issues with the V8s, but very few with the V12s. Probably because there are so many more F1 V8s than V12s. There were only 1818 F1 575Ms built vs 10,000+ F1 360s and a similar number of F430s. The torque curve on the V12s seems to match up better with F1. A 575M has nearly 60% more torque than a 360. Plus the wear limit on a 575 clutch is nearly twice that of a 360 (1.5 mm vs 0.8 mm)

Mine has caused no problems after over 3 years in my care.

Taz
Terry phillips
tazandjan is online now  
Old 08-29-2011, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Mark- You see all kinds of F1 issues with the V8s, but very few with the V12s. Probably because there are so many more F1 V8s than V12s. There were only 1818 F1 575Ms built vs 10,000+ F1 360s and a similar number of F430s. The torque curve on the V12s seems to match up better with F1. A 575M has nearly 60% more torque than a 360. Plus the wear limit on a 575 clutch is nearly twice that of a 360 (1.5 mm vs 0.8 mm)

Mine has caused no problems after over 3 years in my care.

Taz
Terry phillips
You're probably right....but you're also now pointing to a potential problem with supply.

Another problem I would expect is with the controller....weren't talking about acceleration an 1500-1800lb vs 3800lb and probably using a modified engine which will alter the shift points. Re-doing the controller cold be a really a big job all by itself.....

I got this from Bret in an email:
"550 engine + 12 Ducati 1098 throttle bodies + 458 DCT = heaven :-) "

and that is very much where my head is at the moment.

Any idea how similar the 458 and California cases are?

I know I could adapt a torque tube and make a 458 trans work but I'm wondering is ferrari already did and the stuff basically bolts on or I'll need to do "the laying on of hands" if I want to head down this path
mk e is offline  
Old 08-29-2011, 09:59 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Mark- This will give you some idea. The California unit with torque tube is much more amenable to what you are trying to do. Plus the California TCU is available separately. I cannot find a separate TCU for the 458.

Taz
Terry Phillips
Attached Images
     
tazandjan is online now  
Old 08-29-2011, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Mark- This will give you some idea. The California unit with torque tube is much more amenable to what you are trying to do. Plus the California TCU is available separately. I cannot find a separate TCU for the 458.

Taz
Terry Phillips
I'm guessing that is the California stuff on top and the 458 on the bottom?

I'm seeing what looks like the exactly the same transmission case but with some extra stuff to move the engine forward? ......but I may be just seeing what I want to see
mk e is offline  
Old 08-29-2011, 10:21 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Mark- I knew you would figure it out. They are essentially the same Getrag unit with one adapted for a front engine and one for a mid-engine. If you found a wrecked California, you could pull just about everything you needed from the wreck, including the torque tube, TCU and half-shafts. The 458 transaxles are not even available for resale at this time.


Taz
Terry Phillips
tazandjan is online now  
Old 08-29-2011, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Mark- I knew you would figure it out. They are essentially the same Getrag unit with one adapted for a front engine and one for a mid-engine. If you found a wrecked California, you could pull just about everything you needed from the wreck, including the torque tube, TCU and half-shafts. The 458 transaxles are not even available for resale at this time.


Taz
Terry Phillips
Odd how much "stuff" they bolted on...it looks almost like the California was designed for a front trans and they changed they minds at the last minute.


Do the 550 and 575 set-ups look similar? Is a 456 similar to them? I'm wondering if this stuff could be used then a California or 458 trans connected is one can be found.....at a Lana approved cost.



I was looking at a 944 set-up that looks much simpler and lighter....and bolts to a $1500 boxster trans

I think I've probably got about 12-18 months of design work ahead so that will give some more time for salvage yard inventories to start to build up, but I'm guessing the prices will be pretty high for several more years.
mk e is offline  
Old 08-29-2011, 11:22 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Mark- From the stuff you have fabricated, all you really need is the transaxle and you could fabricate the rest. I think the torque on a Maranello V12 would eat a Boxster transaxle. Both are over 400 ft lbs and the Boxsters did not have enough torque to pull the fuzz off a dandelion.

Here are the similar transaxles on the 456M and 575M, both with good 6 speed transmissions and rear ends for high torque applications. The Maranello and Enzo transaxles share a lot of parts, by the way.

Note the V12 transaxles tend to be more lengthy, while the DCT transaxles are shorter, but more bulky.

Incidentally, the California was also available with a 6 speed manual transaxle, so some of those extraneous parts are where the clutch goes on the manual version. I think about 10 were made, which means that was a waste of Ferrari's money and they are rarer than hen's teeth.

Taz
Terry Phillips
Attached Images
   

Last edited by tazandjan; 08-29-2011 at 11:31 AM.
tazandjan is online now  
Old 08-29-2011, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
mk e's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: PA, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 4,439
It probably makes the most sense to try to use the 456/550/575 gear boxes.

Looking at the pic, I am a bit concerned about space....this car will not be as wide as a 550/575 and that trans will be right between the seats vs just a torque tube between the seats if a Ferrari DCT or any of the Porsche options.is used.

I'll probably have to get some parts in hand to start the layout process.
mk e is offline  
Old 08-29-2011, 01:23 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Mark- The wheelbase on the Maranello is 2500 mm or 98.43". The 275 GTB's wheelbase was the standard 2400 mm (94.49"), same as the GTO and the rest of the SWB 250s. Not too much difference. Even the LWB 250 California had a longer wheelbase (2600 mm) than the Maranellos. You have to have room for a clutch up front, so you are going to have a torque tube, even if it is short. The transaxle cars only have two motor mounts up front for the engine and two for the transaxle in the rear, with the torque tube solidly connecting the two.

A 2400 mm wheelbase would probably be what you would want for your car. Much shorter than that and she could get kind of twitchy with all the power you will have.

Taz
Terry Phillips
tazandjan is online now  
Old 08-29-2011, 02:18 PM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
...Plus the California TCU is available separately...

Taz
Terry Phillips
The TCU is exactly what I was thinking about at lunch today. I think that's the biggest hurdle as you absolutely need one from the parts car. A California TCU would probably work; it would be interesting to see if it could handle a lighter flywheel and a slightly higher rev limit (the Cali spins to 7,750 if I'm not mistaken).

The only thing that makes me balk a bit about using a Porsche PDK is that I've never come away thinking it's that great of a trans. I've only driven the Panamera, but it just wasn't good enough that I'd pair it with a car that I spent thousands of hours building. It was far from the cerebral nature of the Ferrari F1 system and of course the Ferrari DCT.

I don't see any DCTs on ebay yet, but 550 and 456 trans look to be readily available.
Ferrari 550 Transmission, used, part # 172617 | eBay

So are 360 F1 and 430 F1 trans for that matter.
Ferrari 360, F1/Standard Transmission, 10k Miles | eBay

If you wanted a stockier manual trans, the 355 is a good choice because it's transverse instead of longitudinal like the others in consideration. Of course, it would have to be taken into consideration that the clutch hangs off the back end.
Used 6 Speed Transmission For Ferrari 355 | eBay
bretm is offline  
Old 08-29-2011, 02:53 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,859
Bret- Affirmative, the California redline is 8000 rpm, which does not match up too badly with the Maranellos' 7500 rpm redline in stock form. 456/M redline is considerably lower at 6800 rpm. No sense turning 456s faster since they quit making hp up there.

Taz
Terry Phillips
tazandjan is online now  
 
Thread Tools



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale