Designing a modern 275..... - Page 2 - Ferrari Life
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post #21 of 316 Old 03-25-2011, 02:10 PM
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It will all come clear once I can share some of the concept drawings. Michael is quite a talented designer and is doing a great job turning the concept idea into sketches of a design. It’s elegant yet pretty mean frikin looking.
Looking forward to seeing the concept drawings....

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post #22 of 316 Old 03-26-2011, 04:04 AM
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Yeah, this car will be 275 size, which is like 2/3 the size of the modern stuff so a modern chassis isn’t of any use. Also I’m not a fan of rebodying in general anyway. This will use a salvage yard Ferrari V12 engine and maybe trans, but there probably isn’t anything else on a modern V12 ferrari that will be of any help because they just don’t fit the style/size I’m going for.

The body, chassis, interior will all be original design….so this car won’t have a Ferrari badge on it anyplace but the engine. I’m thinking it will get one of my “gemello cattivo” (evil twin) badges just like my 308 is getting (although that will also keep its Ferrari badge).

It will all come clear once I can share some of the concept drawings. Michael is quite a talented designer and is doing a great job turning the concept idea into sketches of a design. It’s elegant yet pretty mean frikin looking.
Any chance you would use a CF tub?
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post #23 of 316 Old 03-26-2011, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
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Any chance you would use a CF tub?
That's the plan. I'm also thinking that since the plan is to keep the design a bit raw and "race car like" I'd like to include at least an integrated roll bar or cage so it's legal for competition in at least SCCA solo competition
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post #24 of 316 Old 03-26-2011, 06:40 AM
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That's the plan. I'm also thinking that since the plan is to keep the design a bit raw and "race car like" I'd like to include at least an integrated roll bar or cage so it's legal for competition in at least SCCA solo competition
Very very cool. Should be a hell of a car.
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post #25 of 316 Old 03-26-2011, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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Very very cool. Should be a hell of a car.
I hope so.

If we can get a good design worked out, and I'm starting to believe we can, I'm thinking we'll most likely make copies available......probably as "kits" to avoid the almost unbelievable amount of regulations a new vehicle manufacturer need to comply with these days.
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post #26 of 316 Old 03-26-2011, 10:58 AM
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Mark, which way are you leaning on the engine/transmission arrangement?

Bolting the engine directly to the tranny? ,
Or a torque tube setup for better weight distribution?

With the torque tube, you could probably bolt in an entire 550 powertrain. Wouldn't that be a sweet setup.....

Can't wait to see some teaser pics......

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post #27 of 316 Old 03-26-2011, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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Mark, which way are you leaning on the engine/transmission arrangement?

Bolting the engine directly to the tranny? ,
Or a torque tube setup for better weight distribution?

With the torque tube, you could probably bolt in an entire 550 powertrain. Wouldn't that be a sweet setup.....

Can't wait to see some teaser pics......
It will use be a transaxle mount int he rear...of course

The 550 drivetrain would almost certainly need the torque tube shortened but yes, that's the general idea. For me personally I think one of the newer a dual clutch transaxles would be the go since this would be Lana's car and she's not a fan of clutches. and also because by "modern version" I do mean modern.

So, knowing there would be different opinions on what "right" is I think my goal in the engineering phase will be to make sure anything 456 and up will work. This is a bit harder to do with the CF tub construction but I've got a few ideas on how to handle it and I'm pretty sure I can make it work.
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post #28 of 316 Old 03-31-2011, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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No pictures to share yet, but my heads is about ready to explode this week…brought on by myself of course.

It all starts with the words “I'm thinking we'll most likely make copies available......”. Now in my head it just seemed a pretty big waste to go to the bother to do a design and make the molds and jigs and then just make one and chuck all the tools into storage.

The reality of “make copies” is very different though because instantly the questions come from both outside and within the team. Hard questions like “How much does it cost?”, “what features does it come with?”, “what features can be added?”, “What’s the timeline?”, “What’s the business model?”…..


Yeah….all good questions I guess……..hmmmm…… I’m going to have to do some kind of design inputs/outputs, spec sheets, business plan …..and it can’t actually cost 2-3 times in both money and time what I planned on because I was lying to myself like all my other car projects, it has to meet the plan targets…….sh*t, now it’s just like work.

I’m going to start by asking for help. Here’s what I’m thinking, comments welcome:

1) It will be under 2000lbs with a goal at 1500lbs for a race simple version
2) It will accept a 456 and up V12 but will probably require a custom intake and headers (which would be available but not included in the base kit to allow other engine choices).
3) The base kit would be unpainted, include a race-simple interior parts, glass, wiring, suspension, brakes all included but not installed, wheels and tires, engine, trans not included
4) Target price $50k (this one is going to be at least as hard as the weight target to hit)

which with the purchase of an engine, trans, wheels/tires would put the finished price right around $100k-$125k depending on exactly what engine and how much assembly is hired out.

Extra cost stuff would be paint, assemble, GT interior, HVAC system (1500lbs is a hard target to hit and AC is at least 100lbs), maybe better shocks and brakes, the intake and exhaust maybe a couple choices here

Does this sound right? wrong? Just plain silly?
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post #29 of 316 Old 03-31-2011, 10:39 AM
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You had me at "under 2000lbs and V12"!

A car like that, capable of hard track use, is bound to speed up the pulse of many car enthusiasts. The debate of sacrificing Ferrari donor cars might impose a problem though... Perhaps offer an alternative with Bimmer V12?

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post #30 of 316 Old 03-31-2011, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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You had me at "under 2000lbs and V12"!

A car like that, capable of hard track use, is bound to speed up the pulse of many car enthusiasts. The debate of sacrificing Ferrari donor cars might impose a problem though... Perhaps offer an alternative with Bimmer V12?

I'm talking about a savlage yard V12 ...hell you could order yourself a brand new engine if you wanted so no car need be sacrificed.

But, to your point a bimmer 6 or 12 would probably fit just fine and dramatically reduce the both the cost and driving the experience
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post #31 of 316 Old 03-31-2011, 10:53 AM
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Please get a hardcore track prototype up and running so we can see and hear.

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post #32 of 316 Old 03-31-2011, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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Please get a hardcore track prototype up and running so we can see and hear.
At the moment I have no plans to design or build a serious track version because no one has asked for one.

Right now the list is:

simple/light street - 1
Street GT - 1

and 1 or 2 more unspecified at the moment.

Hardcore track to me means the trans I have in mind needs to be replaces as do the brakes, shocks, springs, sway bars, seats, seat belts, wheels probably, glass out lexan in....probably about a $15k-$20k cost up
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post #33 of 316 Old 04-01-2011, 10:54 AM
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Mark I know you're on a mission to keep the weight down, and keep the car "faithful" to Maranello, but what are the general thoughts from this forum about using a donor car such as a 'vette for parts such as wishbones, uprights, spindles, steering rack, etc to keep the costs down?

Or are costs really not that important, and what people really want is to have the car assembled from primarily Ferrari parts?

Although the 'vette carries its own stigma, and probably many people here (including myself) would never want to own one, we'd all have to grudgingly admit there's a lot of engineering in that car, and some good hardware available at very reasonable prices. And the car is surprisingly light, although it looks like one heavy pig. In reality the Z06 weighs in at only 3180 lbs, which is around 700 lbs lighter than my Maranello!

In my opinion, the two things that will make your car an instant exotic are
1) the body design, which I hope you'll keep as a modern classic, and

2) the engine, which needs to be a V12 either from Ferrari or maybe BMW. Anyone who contemplates putting a SBC/SBF in this car needs their head examined, and to be gently persuaded to go buy a Cobra or an Ultima.

Many of the other key parts, IMO could be sourced from well engineered production cars, like the 'vette, to keep the costs down.

Once the car is built and running, are most people going to know or care where the brakes and suspensions came from, as long as they're well engineered, safe, and work well? Frankly, I'd much rather buy my wheel bearings from SKF for $100 per corner, rather than pay $1700 for the same thing in a yellow box.

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post #34 of 316 Old 04-02-2011, 07:21 AM Thread Starter
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Mark I know you're on a mission to keep the weight down, and keep the car "faithful" to Maranello, but what are the general thoughts from this forum about using a donor car such as a 'vette for parts such as wishbones, uprights, spindles, steering rack, etc to keep the costs down? .
You say you understand I’m on a mission to keep weight down, but you’re thinking way too big.

Cars have gotten BIG and heavy in the past 30 years and I just can’t use parts form a big heavy car to build a small light car.

If you want to put this in better perspective think Lotus Elise….….with a V12 stuffed in it. Think about that for a minute……a 500+hp V12 Elise.

So, as I really thinking about where components come from the help me control weight and cost control I’m thinking more about cars like the Lotus or S2000 than I am about 550s or ‘vettes

The euro Elise was 1600lbs but the US version with all our bullshit requirements more like 2000lbs and this is exactly the weight difference you’d get taking a euro Elise and V12ing it, but I’d really like to find a few hundred more lbs that can come out. Either way, these parts are sized exactly right for the car I’m envisioning, the parts are pretty light, available, and relatively inexpensive.

Right now, my basic OEM parts shopping list looks something like this:
Engine – Ferrari V12, BWM V12 as an alternate. I’m going to try very hard to put the starter and clutch at the transaxle to help with weight distribution. This also means the engine can be mounted very low in the chassis since there will be no flywheel ring gear diameter issue to deal with.

Trans – Porsche 986 5sdp as standard, but other Porsche variants could be used with a cost/weight increase. I’m thinking a modified 944 torque tube set-up and

Clutch – probably a 7 ¼” twin disc unit with organic friction material….quartermast has a decent unit for not a ton of money that should work just fine, but any 7 ¼” race clutch could be used. These things are only 6-8 lbs generally.

Starter - a small gear reduction started again 6-8 lbs.

Suspension – Elise. Different springs and shocks might be required but can definitely be added

Brakes – Elise, again bigger heavier stuff can be added….not needed for street/light track, but for serious track use you’d want more brake than just a pad upgrade could deliver I think.

Steering – I’m still looking to the Elise at the moment.

Glass – I think getting custom glass is out for the price target so I’m looking to use something that is already out there. 240-280Z windshield, side and rear glass is a good match to the 275 look since that is clearly what they copied when the made it. We’ll see though, the designer (Michael) has the final say on what’s needed to give the correct look. Whatever we pick, lightweight Lexan side and rear windows will also be available.

Custom stuff:
Body/chassis – I’m currently thinking a 4130 steel cage that probably also has mount/trans/suspension hard points on it buried in the CF tub structure. This will add a probably 100 lbs but it also adds a whole lot of safety. The outer skin portions will probably be foam or honeycomb cored to keep things rigid stiff without adding weight.

Seats – I don’t know yet….. This can really add weight if care isn’t taken so in my mind these are fixed position race seats but this most likely has to be to the drivers preference.

Wheels – owner’s call. I’ll design for an appropriate size…something like 17 or 18x 8-9 in front and 17 or 18x 9-11 n the rear should do it. The Elise hubs are 4 bolt I believe so OEM Ferrari wheels are not an option unless I re-drill or remake the hubs, but there are lots and lots of 4 bolt options so I see no need change this and add the extra weight or 4 more bolts

HVAC - Another I’m not sure yet. Vintage air makes some nice stuff design as a retrofit so the shapes of the housing are pretty generic and they have a lot of options but maybe while we’re stripping an Elise this is something that could be grabbed as well…..probably too small though as the elise doesn’t have a big back window to lets in the sun and the heat it brings….most likely vintage air and design so you can take it or leave it

Power stuff….I’m torn on this. Power steering? Power brakes? Windows? Locks? Mirrors? All nice…but not really in keeping with the goal and not really needed anyway. I’m half thinking do doing something like add remote power locks and tie that to the ignition so if you unlock the door you don’t need keys, just push the start button and go which would keep the interior very race simple.
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post #35 of 316 Old 04-02-2011, 09:20 AM
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Sounds like you have a good plan, Mark!

Simplicity, balance, performance, lightweight, V12! Great, what about the design? To whom will you entrust the design job?

Salve,
Capo

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You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.
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post #36 of 316 Old 04-02-2011, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Sounds like you have a good plan, Mark!

Simplicity, balance, performance, lightweight, V12! Great, what about the design? To whom will you entrust the design job?
The body/interior is being designed by Michael (Designstar).

He's laid out what I think are some really nice concepts and is working now to create something public forum quality that I can post.....it's going to be a beautiful car and worthy of a ferrari engine.
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post #37 of 316 Old 04-02-2011, 09:49 AM
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OK, no more 'vette suggestions.

Brilliant idea on the flywheel/clutch/starter

Also the electrics tied into the remote are a very cool idea. The only suggestion I'd have there is to have a supplemental toggle (under a red flip up guard, of course) to turn the ignition on, so you can "kill" the car without locking yourself in. And a 2nd toggle (again under a red flip up guard) which would be a spring return for the start switch. Maybe these are a bit OTT for a street car, however.......

Definitely need A/C in TX; the car would be unbearable for at least half the year, otherwise.

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #38 of 316 Old 04-02-2011, 10:56 AM
 
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I will go back to lurking in a minute (followed you here via the V12 project from the site that shall not be named), but would like to say be careful with the Elise steering rack as they have reliability issues (at least on the mk1). A cheaper, more common alternative would be Mazda MX5/Miata.. On the generation 1-3 it's about as simple a rack as you can get and contains far less bushing so feedback/feel is great. The only problem is that there is only rake adjustment, no reach, but I believe this is true of the Elise as well...

Keep up the good work, I'll get back in my hole now!!
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post #39 of 316 Old 04-03-2011, 07:11 AM
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I would source as many parts from Ferrari as possible along with trying to keep the basic mechanical layout of the original 275.
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post #40 of 316 Old 04-03-2011, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Brilliant idea on the flywheel/clutch/starter
And credit belongs where it's dues so....excellent suggetions Jonh!


Quote:
Also the electrics tied into the remote are a very cool idea. The only suggestion I'd have there is to have a supplemental toggle (under a red flip up guard, of course) to turn the ignition on, so you can "kill" the car without locking yourself in. And a 2nd toggle (again under a red flip up guard) which would be a spring return for the start switch. Maybe these are a bit OTT for a street car, however......

Yes, there would still need to be an ignition switch, the idea was mostly just an easy way to get rid of the keys hanging from the dash. I like the covered switches for the race look.....but I'll need to defer to Michael on this I think though, he gets the final say on anything appearance/look related.
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