F355 F355 major service and then some... - Ferrari Life
 2Likes
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 49 Old 12-17-2015, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
Owner
Sponsor
 
David @ FluentInFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sarasota FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 962
F355 major service and then some...

Another F355 engine out service...
5+years since the last engine out service, with this being the first service for the new owner who purchased the car about a year ago. As the car has had a slight rough idle, a pre-removal compression test was done. The result weren't particularity good, being both low and with a bit more variation than I'd like.

The engine removed with little drama. A leak down test was performed which indicated high leakage on all cylinders. Excessive leakage noticed on virtually all of the valves and through the crankcase. Never a good sign...

As expected, this necessitated cylinder head removal for further inspection. Typical F355 head issues; valves and guides. The guides appear to be bronze-like, recycled tuna fish cans. The valve faces look horrible.

However, visible inspection of the cylinder bores revealed heavy wear in cylinders #2 and #7. Cylinder bore-only leak down tests revealed high leakage past the rings. The precise repair path has yet to be determined. At minimum, a couple of liners, rod bearings and ring sets...and much more time.
Attached Images
         

Sarasota Italian Garage, LLC
Sarasota, FL
www.fluentinferrari.com
[email protected]

**An independent facility with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA**
David @ FluentInFerrari is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 49 Old 12-17-2015, 06:23 AM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
David - I was expecting a GTB when you said the car was tracked - did not think spiders could be tracked...

Anyway - look forward to the updates. Perhaps with the updates, folks will see that removing heads (and rebuilding them) is a lot more work than the internet rumor of $5K on top of a major which I personally think is a joke (as in too low by 1/2)

PS - please post a photo of the worn out liners - I'd like to see how bad they are...
dave rocks is offline  
post #3 of 49 Old 12-17-2015, 05:31 PM
Owner
 
Taz355's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Alberta,california
Ferrari Life Posts: 379
Would love to see some pics of wear etc related to cylinder leakdown and low compression numbers.

Visual inspection looks like car was well taken car of.
Taz355 is offline  
 
post #4 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 02:03 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
cribbj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Houston
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,196
What a way to begin the Ferrari experience for a new owner.........

It'd be hard to resist reringing the whole engine, and if the other liners are showing some taper or are out of round......

'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

Maranello Skunkworks Team Member
cribbj is offline  
post #5 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 04:25 AM Thread Starter
Owner
Sponsor
 
David @ FluentInFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sarasota FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
What a way to begin the Ferrari experience for a new owner.........
An expert level PPI would have revealed pending problems. Compression tests tell far more than just compression based on how the compression value changes with each revolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
It'd be hard to resist re-ringing the whole engine, and if the other liners are showing some taper or are out of round......
I agree completely. My concern, as we'll be around 100 hours of labor going through the bottom engine, is that it needs to be done correctly, else why bother. The labor is fairly easy to estimate; the parts are another story with liners at $900+ each. And then what else will be needed?

We've both been down that path, John. :-)

Sarasota Italian Garage, LLC
Sarasota, FL
www.fluentinferrari.com
[email protected]

**An independent facility with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA**
David @ FluentInFerrari is offline  
post #6 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 05:24 AM Thread Starter
Owner
Sponsor
 
David @ FluentInFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sarasota FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz355 View Post
Would love to see some pics of wear etc related to cylinder leak down and low compression numbers.
Over 15% leakage (bore-only) on this cylinder. The ridge is more than
0.001" Compression low and slow to pump up.

On these engines, it is not uncommon to see less that 5%, bore only.
Attached Images
 

Sarasota Italian Garage, LLC
Sarasota, FL
www.fluentinferrari.com
[email protected]

**An independent facility with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA**
David @ FluentInFerrari is offline  
post #7 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 05:56 AM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
It's hard to tell from the photo David, but the wear looks to be in a small section (radially). Have you swept the bore with a bore gage to measure out -of-round? My liners are actually in nice shape - glad I don't need to bite that bullet
dave rocks is offline  
post #8 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 07:01 AM
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ONTARIO
Ferrari Life Posts: 768
Hey Dave, good to see that you are checking everything under the sun with this 355.
ALEX A is offline  
post #9 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
Owner
Sponsor
 
David @ FluentInFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sarasota FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave rocks View Post
It's hard to tell from the photo David, but the wear looks to be in a small section (radially). Have you swept the bore with a bore gage to measure out -of-round? My liners are actually in nice shape - glad I don't need to bite that bullet
What were your bore-only leak down numbers?

Sarasota Italian Garage, LLC
Sarasota, FL
www.fluentinferrari.com
[email protected]

**An independent facility with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA**
David @ FluentInFerrari is offline  
post #10 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 10:13 AM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
What were your bore-only leak down numbers?
I still need to leak down the bores. The visually inspection of the liners shows no scores. IIRC, the out-of-round was only .0001"-.0002"

My low(er) compression and leak down was clearly in the head as I could feel the air coming out the valves and the carbon / corrosion of the valves aligned.

However, I still plan to replace the rings as I get get a full aftermarket set of $800.00
dave rocks is offline  
post #11 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 03:40 PM
Owner
 
Taz355's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Alberta,california
Ferrari Life Posts: 379
Dave you need to build a flat plate to do bores only correct??
Taz355 is offline  
post #12 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 03:46 PM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz355 View Post
Dave you need to build a flat plate to do bores only correct??
Yes, plate with an o-ring for a face seal and a port for air. It's on my list and another tool we plan to offer. I should have more time mid January once I finish my red/black GTB which is close to being done.

My liners are in very good shape so I'm confident I won't need to replace them (thank god). No score marks like the one David posted the photo of. I still plan (and will) leak down the bores.

I want to finish that car so I can drive next season (even if only fall), so I need to get back at it soon and go hard. Lots to do
dave rocks is offline  
post #13 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 03:52 PM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
Quick observation: looking at the photo David posted again and the scores come all the way up the liner to the head deck. That is interesting as the rings don't come that high. I know the piston has some float but that just seems odd...
dave rocks is offline  
post #14 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 03:54 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
cribbj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Houston
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz355 View Post
Dave you need to build a flat plate to do bores only correct??
Here's my ghetto version; it's a tapered rubber plug from McMaster with a hole through it, then I welded a washer on the end of some 1/4" SS tubing and passed it through from the bottom, then put some Parker fittings on the other end so I could make up my leakdown tester to it. Finished it off with the square steel plate you see on top.


'99 550, Rosso Corsa / Nero, S/N:114654, Assy: 31836, Engine: 52084

High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

Maranello Skunkworks Team Member
cribbj is offline  
post #15 of 49 Old 12-18-2015, 04:30 PM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
So, my curiosity could not wait....went into the garage to have another look at my liners. The piston certainly can rock a bit about the wrist pin and those marks match the piston top cutout. Mine does have witness marks but they are visual only. They are not scored (can't be felt)
Attached Images
 
dave rocks is offline  
post #16 of 49 Old 12-19-2015, 05:46 AM Thread Starter
Owner
Sponsor
 
David @ FluentInFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sarasota FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
Here's my ghetto version...
Ghetto or not, you're not guessing as to the ring/bore condition. Standard procedure around here, whenever the heads come off. (Nice leakage, eh? :-) )
Attached Images
 

Sarasota Italian Garage, LLC
Sarasota, FL
www.fluentinferrari.com
[email protected]

**An independent facility with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA**
David @ FluentInFerrari is offline  
post #17 of 49 Old 12-19-2015, 06:24 AM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
So, when leak down testing the bore, are you doing so throughout the entire piston travel - say every 1/4 inch or just one single place?

Would seem to me that the total travel would be needed. Aside from visual and scores that can be felt, measuring the bore throught would be required also as to determine liner vs rings?
dave rocks is offline  
post #18 of 49 Old 12-19-2015, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
Owner
Sponsor
 
David @ FluentInFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sarasota FL
Ferrari Life Posts: 962
Leak is typically measured at TDC, as that's where the highest compression (cylinder pressures) would occur. In general, rings are 'softer' than the bores they ride in. Inspection (visual, measurement, touch, etc. will dictate the next steps. Frankly, if you're replace liners or honing/boring, as in a conventional engine, the rings are always replaced.

Sarasota Italian Garage, LLC
Sarasota, FL
www.fluentinferrari.com
[email protected]

**An independent facility with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA**
David @ FluentInFerrari is offline  
post #19 of 49 Old 12-19-2015, 10:47 AM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
Interesting....

But thinking about this and playing devils advocate, let's assume the liner was fine the last 1/2" of travel (toward TDC), but really worn below..if the leak was great before TDC, the stroke length to produce compression would be very reduced and yield a much reduced compression. That said, the seal integrity would be needed the entire stroke - correct?

I'm almost thinking a compression test of just the cylinder bore would be more valuable than leak as it would be dynamic. Only problem is you would need a check valve to allow air suction on the down stroke, right?

Last edited by dave rocks; 12-19-2015 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Forget inch symbol
dave rocks is offline  
post #20 of 49 Old 12-20-2015, 03:43 AM
Owner
 
john85QV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New England CT
Ferrari Life Posts: 153
Just some info. Max wear generally occurs at the top of the stroke, usually within 10 degrees of rotation, or about 1.5% of the stroke. Seems odd because that is where piston velocity is at a minimum, but it is also the area of maximum pressure and minimum lubrication.
dave rocks likes this.

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
85 308 GTB QV red/tan (original owner)
95 F355 Spider SwatersBlu/tan
john85QV is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale