F355 Need tips on performing smoke test - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 44 Old 07-02-2015, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Need tips on performing smoke test

So I am trying to determine the cause of some consistent, relatively high Long Term Fuel Trim readings.

A buddy of mine who owns a shop and an automotive smoke test machine is going to give me a hand but I was hoping I could get a few tips or tricks specific to the F355.

I plan to test the intake and the exhaust.

Anyone got any advice?
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post #2 of 44 Old 07-02-2015, 06:31 PM
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From my understanding, stick the input in exhaust, plug all other ports and run smoke. If you have header leaks you will see smoke coming out of clam shell.
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post #3 of 44 Old 07-03-2015, 03:52 AM
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No different than any other car....

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post #4 of 44 Old 07-03-2015, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badabing View Post
So I am trying to determine the cause of some consistent, relatively high Long Term Fuel Trim readings...
Positive or Negative trim?
How high?
Where is the ST trim?
What device/technology are you using to establish trim?

Didn't you have some sort of an exhaust leak? If so, that will need to be addressed first before looking at trim issues.

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post #5 of 44 Old 07-03-2015, 10:29 PM
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Dave my fuel trims have been a little high like in the 4 and 8 range for each bank. Should they generally be better than that. I had heard they should but i thought maybe because of the group m and cappi twin valve it might be off a bit.
Short terms allways hiver around 0 for both.
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post #6 of 44 Old 07-04-2015, 07:00 AM
 
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I found using white smoke in the dark with a flashlight works best ,. It's hard to see the header smoke because the machine doesn't put out a lot of pressure. Remember it takes awhile. The machine has to fill headers and muffler then build up enough pressure to get through the header insulation and find a way out of the clamshell.
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post #7 of 44 Old 07-04-2015, 07:21 AM
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Dave my fuel trims have been a little high like in the 4 and 8 range for each bank. Should they generally be better than that?
Yes, they should be better. I shoot for zero, but that isn't always possible due to the condition of the engine, state of tune, components, etc. Any way you slice it, 8% is high. A positive number indicates that the ECU, based on the information provided by the O2 sensor, is adding fuel. Hence, you have a lean condition.

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I had heard they should but i thought maybe because of the group m and cappi twin valve it might be off a bit.
Ah, no...not to the degree that you're off.

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Originally Posted by Taz355 View Post
Short terms always hovers around 0 for both.
Interesting. I presume that this is at idle. I would check at 1500 and 2500, as well.

Fuel trim gives us tremendous insight on what's happening when the engine is in closed loop., However, it does not tell us what's causing the addition/subtraction of fuel. This can be caused by many different factors. Were the adaptive values reset at the last major? If not, reset them now and see where your fuel trim levels go.

If you create an artificial rich condition (propane enrichment) or pull a vacuum hose (lean condition) you should see both a rise or fall in front O2 sensor voltages as well as a corresponding (immediate) change in STFT levels. If you don't, it's time for new, genuine Bosch, front O2 sensors....and none of the universal junk, either.

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post #8 of 44 Old 07-04-2015, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
Yes, they should be better. I shoot for zero, but that isn't always possible due to the condition of the engine, state of tune, components, etc. Any way you slice it, 8% is high. A positive number indicates that the ECU, based on the information provided by the O2 sensor, is adding fuel. Hence, you have a lean condition.
(QUOTE)

So i have a lean condition and the ECU is having to add fuel to keep it in stoike. So that would also mean that the o2 sensor is seeing too much oxygen. So my understanding is that a vacume line is leaking or i have an intake leak after the MAF. Is this correct.




Interesting. I presume that this is at idle. I would check at 1500 and 2500, as well.

It was at idle although i did take it for a drive and do some printouts. It seems better at higher rpm in lower gears. Of course i think it quits cheaking the trims above 5000 rpm.

I did notice when i did my major that not all little brass nipples comming from the engine below the carbs are plugged. Some are open and appear to never have a hose connected.


If you create an artificial rich condition (propane enrichment) or pull a vacuum hose (lean condition) you should see both a rise or fall in front O2 sensor voltages as well as a corresponding (immediate) change in STFT levels. If you don't, it's time for new, genuine Bosch, front O2 sensors....and none of the universal junk, either.
All my O2s are original bosch. I do have to change them every 3 or 4 years consistently and then it gets better for while and seems to slowly get worse. Befor i changed both rear ones this spring the levels were 10 and 16 so they did improve but i was hoping for numbers closer to 2 like others have had.

Some of my responses are within your quote. I did not know how to quote you like you did in your responses. Oops

Thanks for you help by the way.

Last edited by Taz355; 07-04-2015 at 10:31 AM.
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post #9 of 44 Old 07-05-2015, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz355 View Post
So i have a lean condition and the ECU is having to add fuel to keep it in stoike. So that would also mean that the o2 sensor is seeing too much oxygen. So my understanding is that a vacuum line is leaking or i have an intake leak after the MAF. Is this correct?
Partially correct, in that any excess O2 the oxygen sensor sees will result in more correction. I recently had a F355 with the CEL on and stored (SD-2) error code of "adaptive values out of range." For all practical purposes, this means that fuel trim is way, way beyond what the ECU is capable of correcting. Although there were intake intake tract leaks, the biggest leak was in the exhaust system, just upstream of the O2 sensor. So, any leak in the metered air flow stream, regardless of position, can affect trim.

These type of problems can take a bit to resolve and often require multiple smoke/evap tests.

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Last edited by David @ FluentInFerrari; 07-06-2015 at 03:15 AM.
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post #10 of 44 Old 07-05-2015, 01:27 PM
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I think i might have to break down and get a smoke kit any recommendations?
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post #11 of 44 Old 07-05-2015, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taz355 View Post
I think i might have to break down and get a smoke kit any recommendations?
I like to own tools myself, however, when I looked I could only find machines for approx $1,000.00.

I can't justify that expense so was planning to have a friend do mine but we've not done it yet as we need to do it at the end of the day as he works for a national shop.
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post #12 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 06:00 AM
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I think i might have to break down and get a smoke kit any recommendations?
There are a few players in that space. Bosch, Red Line Diagnostics and Snap On. I'm using this one:

Smoke Pro® Air Complete™ - Redline Detection Official Site – Smoke Pro Diagnostic Leak Detector

It's a bit overkill for limited use. I like it as it comes with every possible adapter under the sun, as well as being battery operated (if I don't have an air source.) However, they offer other models as refurbished units for a few hundred dollars.

I find it to be one of my most needed shop tools...as it can eliminate a considerable amount of diagnostic time, right from the start.

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post #13 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
There are a few players in that space. Bosch, Red Line Diagnostics and Snap On. I'm using this one:

Smoke Pro® Air Complete™ - Redline Detection Official Site – Smoke Pro Diagnostic Leak Detector

It's a bit overkill for limited use. I like it as it comes with every possible adapter under the sun, as well as being battery operated (if I don't have an air source.) However, they offer other models as refurbished units for a few hundred dollars.

I find it to be one of my most needed shop tools...as it can eliminate a considerable amount of diagnostic time, right from the start.
Hi Dave,

Thanks for this info. Can you educate me (us) on what other uses this tool has besides exhaust systems? I might look into the refurbished option.
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post #14 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 06:31 AM
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Short answers:

-Fuel trim issues
-Evap codes
-Fuel smell concerns
-Oil leaks
-Intake manifold leaks
-Vacuum-operated switches
-Intake-side vacuum leaks
-Secondary air system function
-Cooling fans blowing/wired the correct way
-And, as they say on TV, so much more...

And then there's the exhaust system. Looking past the obvious header issue(s), the effect (of an exhaust leak) on pre-cat O2 sensor air leak can significantly affect the way the car runs. This is frequently overlooked....

It might make more sense to find a shop with one...and develop a relationship with them. I can give you a list of another $100K or so in equipment you should have if you want to service/maintain these cars to the highest level possible. But a good European shop will have most of what you need at a far lesser cost. But, I completely understand your thought process.

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post #15 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 07:24 AM
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Thanks Dave. As far as "developing a relationship with another shop" - I wish it was that easy.

In my area, they are non existent. (guys with experience on these cars) And, I can't even hire someone to remove my pool cover and get it right. I hired my buddies guy last week - the dude installed my filters dirty (did not ask him to do anymore than remove cover) and he rolled up the water tubes inside the cover. Total mess that I now need to undo.

Good guys are hard to find. I like to do my work myself then I learn and have only myself to argue with
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post #16 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave rocks View Post
I like to own tools myself, however, when I looked I could only find machines for approx $1,000.00.

I can't justify that expense so was planning to have a friend do mine but we've not done it yet as we need to do it at the end of the day as he works for a national shop.


Easy to make one. A glow plug, a battery charger, a paint can, some baby oil, plastic tubing, a couple of nipples and a compressor with regulator.


Mount glow plug in side of paint can 1/2 to 1" from bottom. Mount nipples in side of paint can. Put baby oil in paint can to a level below the glow plug. Connect short piece of plastic tube to inside of one nipple and route so it is submerged in baby oil. Connect supply air to this nipple. Connect other nipple to another piece of plastic hole. This will be smoke side. Put lid on paint can. Connect battery charger glow plug and turn on air supply at very low pressure. Air bubbles up through oil. Oil splashes on glow plug creating smoke which comes out the other side adjust air pressure to generate enough smoke, but don't blow up can.


Here's a YouTube version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkGhUov74Q


I've seen some made from a sheet rock bucket with a cigar burning inside. Lots of ideas for DIY smoke generators on YouTube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvjk4F9sRo8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U5kFib1WxE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aTAwO-2-6k

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
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post #17 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 09:54 AM
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Hey John,

Let me know my good buddy when you are ready to make one for me
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post #18 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 10:22 AM
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Inert gas testing safer of fuel system....But, no worries, I'm about 465 miles away in case something goes BOOM! Just kiddin', but safety first!

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post #19 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
Short answers:

-Fuel trim issues
-Evap codes
-Fuel smell concerns
-Oil leaks
-Intake manifold leaks
-Vacuum-operated switches
-Intake-side vacuum leaks
-Secondary air system function
-Cooling fans blowing/wired the correct way
-And, as they say on TV, so much more...

And then there's the exhaust system. Looking past the obvious header issue(s), the effect (of an exhaust leak) on pre-cat O2 sensor air leak can significantly affect the way the car runs. This is frequently overlooked....

It might make more sense to find a shop with one...and develop a relationship with them. I can give you a list of another $100K or so in equipment you should have if you want to service/maintain these cars to the highest level possible. But a good European shop will have most of what you need at a far lesser cost. But, I completely understand your thought process.

Smoke vs vacuum vs helium

So many tools. I wish I had played more with smoke testing
Nice to hear the uses for it

I'm no way a Ferrari Expert but do see how perfect these cars must be to be running "correctly" and when they do it's a dream machine for sure


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post #20 of 44 Old 07-06-2015, 01:10 PM
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Inert gas testing safer of fuel system....But, no worries, I'm about 465 miles away in case something goes BOOM! Just kiddin', but safety first!

You could go with Radon and a Geiger counter. Radon is a noble gas. : )

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
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