F355 out of curiosity - Ferrari Life
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 75 Old 01-28-2015, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
out of curiosity

I'm not looking for exact figure ... just ball park. What should a person expect to pay now for a engine out service? No extras no surprises. Heres a cpl I am really curious about and I am looking for figures from a good indy shop not a stealership .. Having the valve guides done? I know they would do a belt service at the same time I'm just wondering how much just the valve guides and labor for that? What about a complete engine rebuild? And lastly how much would a person save pulling and replacing the engine themselves?
shootfighter65 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 75 Old 01-28-2015, 04:12 PM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
Randy, you can not exclude dealers. I was told Forgeign cars Italia was doing the basic belt service for $5000. Typically I hear $6-7k depending on the shop. Valve guides another $5-20k depending on the shop - yes, that much of a spread. I'm not even going to touch full engine rebuild because that is subject to lots of variables.
dave rocks is offline  
post #3 of 75 Old 01-28-2015, 07:32 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,856
"Stealership" is doing a disservice to a lot of very competent dealers and their service departments.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
 
post #4 of 75 Old 01-29-2015, 03:52 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
If you're sincerely expecting a "no extras or no surprises" type service, you're looking at the wrong model. These cars define "deferred maintenance" and that aspect of the service alone can be greater that the service itself. There's a great article recently written in Forza Magazine by someone who actually works on these cars on a regular basis. Between his comments and the owner's thoughts, you'll get the true picture with regards to the ownership experience. A $20K service is not out of the realm...

To clarify; an engine out service to merely swap the belts costs $x. To do the job correctly and address all of the stuff that wasn't done in the last five services costs almost twice as much. With Ferrari service or most things in life, good and cheap typically don't go together.

Of course, opinions may vary...
I didnt say in my post I expected no extras or surprises. Please reread more slowly with more attention. There is more to a major than swapping belts you should read up on this its some interesting stuff. Surprises and extras things are not controlled variables. They can vary drastically from car to car. I wasnt interested because there would be no sense in it... I am reading a thread where a guy is getting bumpers repainted during a major...does everyone do that? No

Last edited by shootfighter65; 01-29-2015 at 04:05 AM.
shootfighter65 is offline  
post #5 of 75 Old 01-29-2015, 06:12 AM
Owner
 
john85QV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New England CT
Ferrari Life Posts: 153
Dave, I would be interested in hearing what type of items you would list in the deferred maintenance category for a 355.

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
85 308 GTB QV red/tan (original owner)
95 F355 Spider SwatersBlu/tan
john85QV is offline  
post #6 of 75 Old 01-29-2015, 06:57 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by john85QV View Post
Dave, I would be interested in hearing what type of items you would list in the deferred maintenance category for a 355.
Me too..
shootfighter65 is offline  
post #7 of 75 Old 01-29-2015, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave rocks View Post
Randy, you can not exclude dealers. I was told Forgeign cars Italia was doing the basic belt service for $5000. Typically I hear $6-7k depending on the shop. Valve guides another $5-20k depending on the shop - yes, that much of a spread. I'm not even going to touch full engine rebuild because that is subject to lots of variables.
Wow! 5-20k is a big margin...If one shop can do it for 5k how does another justify 20k ? I read you can send the heads out and get them done new valves and everything for 5k... That might be wrong of course. During the course of a major many hours would it take to pull the heads ship them out then reinstall them?

Last edited by shootfighter65; 01-29-2015 at 02:18 PM.
shootfighter65 is offline  
post #8 of 75 Old 01-29-2015, 01:39 PM
Owner
 
john85QV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New England CT
Ferrari Life Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by shootfighter65 View Post
Wow! 5-20k is a big margin...If one shop can do it for 5k how does another justify 20k ? I read you can send the heads out and get them done new valves and everything... That might be wrong of course. During the course of a major many hours would it take to pull the heads ship them out then reinstall them?


Pulling the heads is a lot of additional work. Starting with the removal of the intake plenums, throttle bodies, headers, coolant manifolds, etc. Then don't forget that you need a complete set of gaskets for all those things going back together. Then there is the machine shop work, cleaning the heads and pistons. A leak down should be done on the block to check the cylinders. Then, do any valves need to be replaced? Should all be replaced? Tappets should be checked and perhaps some will need to be rebuilt. Once the engine is reassembled and running the throttles should probably be balanced. On my car a complete major and head rebuild was billed at $12k. It included all new valves and about 1/2 the tapes were replaced, and that was at a reduced rate.
Attached Images
 

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
85 308 GTB QV red/tan (original owner)
95 F355 Spider SwatersBlu/tan
john85QV is offline  
post #9 of 75 Old 01-29-2015, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by john85QV View Post
Pulling the heads is a lot of additional work. Starting with the removal of the intake plenums, throttle bodies, headers, coolant manifolds, etc. Then don't forget that you need a complete set of gaskets for all those things going back together. Then there is the machine shop work, cleaning the heads and pistons. A leak down should be done on the block to check the cylinders. Then, do any valves need to be replaced? Should all be replaced? Tappets should be checked and perhaps some will need to be rebuilt. Once the engine is reassembled and running the throttles should probably be balanced. On my car a complete major and head rebuild was billed at $12k. It included all new valves and about 1/2 the tapes were replaced, and that was at a reduced rate.
12K? that sounds reasonable.. I'm sure its a lot of work plus having the heads rebuilt... Right now my car just crossed 40k As far as I can tell they have never been done but FOW wasnt very helpful when I stopped to get copies of service records so it is possible...Major was done less than 3 years and 10,000 miles ago so I'm hoping my car got the upgraded valve guides at the factory..
shootfighter65 is offline  
post #10 of 75 Old 01-29-2015, 04:53 PM
Owner
 
Taz355's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Alberta,california
Ferrari Life Posts: 379
I have owned my 355 for about 10 years and because of the little things i have done at the engine out service my future engine out services would likely be less than 10,000. This would include misc items etc. would not include engine or transmission or majors of anything. That being said my last engine out i did myself and spent close to 20 grand. If you just wanted to do the minimum that would have been 8 or less. Once you get to know your car the cost will come down. Significantly over time. That being said if the previous owner did the minimum your first one if you did everything that should be done to reduce your risk of future problems will be quite high.

I hope i said that ok.

Examples of things i did on my first engine out after roughly 5 years of ownership that i did not have to do is water pump, alternator, injectors cleaned, gold connector, hose upgrade for all hoses and probably some others i have forgot. Timed cams, checked valves and guides.
First 5 years roughly all the car cost me was Fuel and oil and a few oxygen sensors. Almost forgot replaced cats with hyperflows.

Second engine out belts injector cleaning, repaint covers. Other things that didnt need to be done but did for peace of mind was tubi headers (originals still good but prone to failure when used with stock muffler which i had done) capristo twin valve, gruppe m intake.


Since that time have repaird all shocks with updated shock actuators ( due to the occasional light on)
Transmission gear was making noise replaced (probably was buggered when i bought it) new tires.

So my feeling is if a person budgeted about 15,000 per engine out and kept car 15 years the new owner would probably experience similar costs. This can change dramatically based on the previous owner and thats why i feel the cars can vary from 30 grand to 85 grand.

Many of the things i did were not required but probably will save me some of that money in the future or at lease not cause something more expensive to break in the future. The car would have run fine had i done a 6500 dollar service.
Taz355 is offline  
post #11 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 04:52 AM
Master Mechanic
 
ECSofVirginia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,219
The catch to this conversation is always that very few 355's can get out of the shop with just a "major service". Often times the major service is a catalyst for a mechanical restoration, of sorts. People tend to avoid the shop as much as possible with a 355 or refuse to authorize repairs along the way due to budget restrictions, so by the time the car comes in for belt service, many systems and components in the car need to be addressed.


On the shop's end, a good one anyway, we know that once we touch the car for belt service, the owner will then blame all that goes wrong in the future on the shop's workmanship. This means it's necessary to go through the car as thoroughly as possible and right as many wrongs as one can, in an effort to avoid being the one legged man at an ass kicking party.


If you just want the engine dropped, belts swapped, then everything re-installed, you're looking at $5k. A accurate checklist type belt service will be about $8k. From there the sky is the limit, usually topping out in the $25-30k window. Good 355's serviced competently, are often in the $12k area. So, I suggest for a no-surprises major to expect $8-15k. I don't think cylinder heads, bottom end, headers, shocks, wheel bearings etc are "major service" items. Those are deferred maintenance items that get lumped in with a major service, so they're not surprises, they're additional items on the car that need attention. Be ready to allocate another $10-15k for all of the additional items that are of common concern.


ECSofVirginia is offline  
post #12 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 05:51 AM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
Josh,

I really struggle with the $25-30K window you reference. Respectfully, that's one main reason people are afraid of this model. I won't spend that on a car I am restoring that was very neglected. Of course, my labor is free.
dave rocks is offline  
post #13 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 06:48 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave rocks View Post
Josh,

I really struggle with the $25-30K window you reference. Respectfully, that's one main reason people are afraid of this model. I won't spend that on a car I am restoring that was very neglected. Of course, my labor is free.
I agree Dave those figures do scare people away from these cars it scares me about my own, its a lot while were here stuff. I would guess a lot of the stuff didn't need tone or maybe never have needed to be done. I also understand his point if he didnt rebuild the water pump or replace it and 500 miles later id did fail another shop might tell the owner this should have been addressed at the major. I cant seem to wrap my head around these numbers though dont make sense.. A guy on another forum had his engine rebuilt for 25k. That I'm sure would include having heads completely rebuilt. New or rebuilt water pump injectors cleaned,belts,fluids everything...so how could a major cost 25k? Doesnt make sense unless there was a lot and I mean a lot of other stuff wrong with the car that wouldn't be considered part of the major service.... I mean for 25k at some Indy shops you could a belt service with filters belts timed water pump rebuilt hoses and clamps, some extras plus have the a new clutch,pp,tob and flywheel turned and have some money to play with..
shootfighter65 is offline  
post #14 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 08:13 AM
Owner
 
john85QV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New England CT
Ferrari Life Posts: 153
FYI, I went through my invoice and took out those additionally items which were associated with the head work. After that the major came to about $5427 with 34 hours labor and included the initial leak down test, belts, cam seals, cam timing, all fluids, a speedo sensor, tensioner bearing, spark plugs, all filters, all belts, AC recharge, remove and reinstall engine.

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
85 308 GTB QV red/tan (original owner)
95 F355 Spider SwatersBlu/tan

Last edited by john85QV; 01-30-2015 at 11:23 AM.
john85QV is offline  
post #15 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by john85QV View Post
FYI, I went through my invoice and took out those additionally items which were associated with the head work. After that the major came to about $5427 with 34 hours labor and included the initial leak down test, belts, cam seals, cam timing, all fluids, a speedo sensor, tensioner bearing, spark plugs, all filters, all belts, AC recharge, remover and reinstall engine.
Thats a price that doesnt scare me...thanks for posting that. its kind of a jump off point. Sure a person may have to spend more but that amount will vary from car to car. I'm still interested in a basic jump off point like that for a complete rebuild.

Last edited by shootfighter65; 01-30-2015 at 11:37 AM.
shootfighter65 is offline  
post #16 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 11:40 AM
Master Mechanic
 
ECSofVirginia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,219
Personally, I'd rather a 355 owner be afraid and not even walk in my shop than walk in wanting a $5k service, with a capped budget of $10k but actually needing $20k to do the job right. That's a very uncomfortable position to be in, for every one.


Here's what you need to realize, all 355's are going to get a $25k "major service" at least once in their life time, for sure twice if the first one still wasn't done well. So the reality is that you can either buy a neglected car and prepared to spend the money or sell it at a loss, or do your diligence and buy one that already had the money spent and was done by someone with a solid reputation, expecting to be in the $8-12k window the next service or two.


Also, I don't know who's charging 34hrs of labor for an engine out service. Engine out's have always started at 34hrs and gone up from there since engine outs existed. I would say that bill is an anomaly, not a standard which one should expect to experience.


ECSofVirginia is offline  
post #17 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 11:48 AM
Owner
 
dave rocks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Orchard Park, New York
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,872
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post


Here's what you need to realize, all 355's are going to get a $25k "major service" at least once in their life time, for sure twice if the first one still wasn't done well.
Respectfully, I don't buy it. My 98 is a mint car. The last service was $10K which included new tires and $1500 of stickies.

I take excellent car of the car and (I think) I have a bad CAT or header - that's it. The car is rock solid. Unless I crash it, it's never going to see a $25K service - not a chance in hell.
dave rocks is offline  
post #18 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 12:34 PM
Owner
 
john85QV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New England CT
Ferrari Life Posts: 153
Perhaps you would like to explain just what is going to (routinely) drive the cost of a major from $6.5k to $25k. Yes, it can happen with an abused car, but that is an exception not a rule. Remember, you said all 355s will need a $25k service at least once, possibly twice in there life.


As for the number I quoted, as I originally said, it was at a reduced rate. If my usual Ferrari shop did the work the increased labor rate would have added about $1200 bringing the total to $6627.

If you are going to tell someone how to remove a bolt you should at least know which way to turn the wrench.
85 308 GTB QV red/tan (original owner)
95 F355 Spider SwatersBlu/tan

Last edited by john85QV; 01-30-2015 at 02:32 PM.
john85QV is offline  
post #19 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Ferrari Life Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave rocks View Post
Respectfully, I don't buy it. My 98 is a mint car. The last service was $10K which included new tires and $1500 of stickies.

I take excellent car of the car and (I think) I have a bad CAT or header - that's it. The car is rock solid. Unless I crash it, it's never going to see a $25K service - not a chance in hell.
I'm with Dave on this one. Every 355 will need a 25k service at least once and most likely twice? Was your car a barn find? Even then whats considered a major still wouldnt cost 25k. I would like to see an itemized list of your 25k major...maybe I'm wrong please enlighten me.....If you cant show me an itemized list of parts and labor costs on a major I will store this in my its pure nonsense file
shootfighter65 is offline  
post #20 of 75 Old 01-30-2015, 08:52 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,856
Valve guides, clutch, etc, etc. Plus the normal stuff.

Josh does this for a living so you can believe his numbers. His point was you do not always know what is in there until you open her up unless you do all your own maintenance. $25K would be unusual, but has happened. One reason F355s scare so many uneducated, would be buyers.

You need to be here a bit longer so you can learn who is believable and who is not and when to comment on believability.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale