F355 ABS Error/malfunction - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 12-10-2011, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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ABS Error/malfunction

I have a 1995 355 with the teves abs system.
I recently changed rotors to 355mm and calipers with s/s brake lines at the front.
This entailed me needing to do a brake system bleed which was duly done and the complete system was flushed and bled.

On taking the car out to road test I got the ABS warning light coming on and staying on as soon as the car reached a speed of 40km/h (25mph).

I did a test sequence using the empty fuse holder and counting the ABS warning light on off sequences and it recorded errors from LF sensor RR sensor RF sensor as well as delivery valve failure.

As the system was operative immediately prior to me doing the brake swap and bleeding I knew that the error codes I was receiving were "wrong".

I unpluged all the sensors and cleaned the connections as well as the plugs on the ABS pump- brake fluid reservoir.

The ABS light will now stay switched off up to a speed of 40km/h then come on and stay on untill roughly 80khm (50mph) at which time if I manualy overide the ABS off and then on the ABS light will remain off as long as the speed is over 60km/h and the ABS will operate normally provided the speed of the speed is not decreased to below 60khm/38mph.

I am now getting a 2.1 error code =Valve or connecting wire defective ....which is most strange as neither is the case as the system operates at a speed of over 60km/h.

I would be gratefull for any input you may have.

I had posted this on Fchat with 200 views and not one response (30/06/2010)
Maybe I shall be luckier here.

btw the ABS system on the 1995 355s is the same system as the FORD Lincoln.
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post #2 of 18 Old 12-10-2011, 01:51 PM
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Peter- When you changed the brakes to larger rotors, did you also change wheels and tires? If you get more than 4-5% difference from stock front to rear tire diameter differential, it will confuse the ABS system.

Stock size tires are 225/40 18 F with a diameter of 25.09" and 265/40 18 with a diameter of 26.35". That gives a F-R differential of +5.02% based on front tire diameter. If you make much of change from that differential, the ABS sensors get confused.

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post #3 of 18 Old 12-10-2011, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
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Terry the car rides on stock rims and rubber.
Prior to me cleaning all sensors it would throw various errors indicating that the front right sensor or left front sensor were not operating but I tested the resistance of all sensors as per Workshop manual instructions and the resistance values were spot on.

I suspect that during my bleeding procedure I may have allowed the fluid level to drop dramatically below the minimum and as the brakes are bled with the car switched on (but not running) it may have confused the ecu? (wild guess on my part)

Needles to say that I have checked and cleaned all connections and verified power to all components.

I typically drive the car with the ABS switched off most of the time but would like to get it sorted even though I will hardly use it.
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File Type: pdf 355 2.pdf (1.59 MB, 1004 views)
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post #4 of 18 Old 12-10-2011, 09:30 PM
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Peter- Is there a separate bleed valve for the ABS reservoir (or whatever they call it) and did you bleed the master cylinder? Air in the master cylinder can cause all kinds of funny indications and they have bleed valves on most Ferraris.

You need help from Brian or one of the pros, most likely.

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post #5 of 18 Old 12-10-2011, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
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Terry that is something I did not think of.
I shall go and look as there may be something in what you say........(although the pedal is firm and the braking even with no pulling left or right).

Had a look and there are no bleed nipples on the master cylinder or ABS pump which is a semi composite unit.

But you certainly have aroused my interest with your observation. I shall research the bleeding procedure of the ABS pump and master cylinder in the FORD manual.

(Yes folks the early 355s run a FORD system)

Last edited by a1exander; 12-10-2011 at 10:36 PM.
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post #6 of 18 Old 12-11-2011, 01:04 AM
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Hi Peter,

You wrote that you changed the front rotors to 355mm. How much different is that to the standard rotors? Did you upgrade also the rear rotors? An ABS error coming up at a certain wheel rotation speed makes me thinking that at least one of the sensors is not giving the expected wheel speed compared to the other sensors (like the front vs rear sensors). I think we have to explore more this area as the bleeding doesn't seem to be an issue here. I don't remember the details of the 355 very well, but how are the wheel speed sensors working on this car?
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post #7 of 18 Old 12-11-2011, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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Stef the rotors are added on to the hubs therefore irrespective of the brake rotor diameter the hub remains the same and the pick-up sensor continues to read the standard hub. The wheel speed sensor is located on the steering knuckles.
http://www.eurospares.co.uk/partTabl...A=1&B=40996&S=

I had wheel speed sensor error codes pop up prior to my removing all of them and cleaning them but it has since stopped and the error I get now is directly related to the ABS pump.

I removed all electrical connections and lubricated them with Q20 but there seems to be no change.

I must admit this has me absolutely puzzled as I have researched the ABS system on numerous occasions in the hope hat I would stumble onto an obvious fault but that has not been the case.

In addition being a pre OBD car there is little you can plug in for diagnosis purposes and even when I discussed it with the main dealer their chief mechanic told me that they would have to do a trial by error exercise as they have not come across it before.
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post #8 of 18 Old 12-11-2011, 08:57 AM
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Stef, Pete- Pete is correct, the ABS sensors (toothed wheel with missing tooth and sensor) are in the hub/wheelbearing interface so the rotor has nothing to do with ABS on most, if not all, Ferraris. Only the diameters of the tires matter and his has stock wheels and tires.

I thought the 2.7 355s could be analyzed with an SD1, including ABS. Is this not true?

Looking at what the Leonardo tool can diagnose, I see it only does the Bosch ABS system, and not the Teves, so it does look like trial and error for the ABS system. It will do Motronic 2.7, but nothing else on 2.7 cars.

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post #9 of 18 Old 12-11-2011, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Terry you are correct.
It is a rubric cube when it comes to the TEVES system.

However being designed by man and assembled by man by extension a man can solve the problem.......or so I would have myself believe.
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post #10 of 18 Old 03-16-2012, 06:05 PM
 
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Just curious if you have fixed the ABS issue? I just got a ABS code error "22" on my 348. I will try to delete the error codes and reset it to see if it will come back on.
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post #11 of 18 Old 04-28-2012, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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An update on the ongoing saga.

I am now getting a 22 code with no other codes stored.
Return line to valve body.
(LH Front Inlet Valve (Disconnect 7 pin connector on Valve Block, measure resistance Pin 7-6, 5-8 ohms service harness, other reading replace valve block).

Checked pins 7 and 6 on the valve controller with an Ohm reading at 7,23 which is within acceptable levels.
Checked the K1 relay which is the first black 4 pin relay and it is working ok.
So according to the repair guides (VW Ford GM) all seems to be ok?



On my next drive what odds that I shall get a new error code?
Any bets?
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post #12 of 18 Old 04-29-2012, 12:29 PM
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You asked me to respond to this.

Sorry I have very little helpful to say. While I never liked the Teves system it has been very reliable. So reliable in fact I have never read the book on the system and have only found it necessary to ever fix one and that includes all the jobs of all the mechanics I ever supervised. That does not count problems induced by incorrect servicing of some kind but those were all easily resolved and none really stand out. Only 2 things I can really say. The self diagnostic routines on many of these systems are really bad and the translations often lead to wild goose chases. Probably one of the reasons I never read the book. The other is that this is almost certainly a case of an induced problem caused by your work on the system. If you allowed air into the system in the process of changing brake parts it can be really hard to get out. Your descriptions of brake function give me zero indications this could not still be the case. I never let an ABS system go dry when hydraulics are disconnected for any reason. Concentrate on the items that were exposed to some type of intervention on your part.

Sorry I can't be more help.
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post #13 of 18 Old 04-29-2012, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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Brian thank you for the response.

Clearly an induced fault via my intervention as prior to me changing callipers the system was working perfectly.

I shall have to bleed the system again repeatedly whilst insuring that it does not ever fall below the minimum.

Bleeding again was something that I did not think of.
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post #14 of 18 Old 04-30-2012, 12:28 AM
 
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I got ABS code 22 right after the local shop inspect my car for pre-purchase inspection. The local shop couldn't figure out what went wrong and told me the whole master cylinder needs to be replaced. I drove the car home, found out the test fuse is on the testing slot. I remove the fuse, clear the codes, and reset the ABS. Everything is OK now. Apparently, the shop left the key in ignition in "ON" and rotated one of the front wheels while the car was on the lift, and mess up the speed sensor reading on that wheel. A simple reset solved the problem. I just thought the local shop should know better by removing the key from the car when inspecting the car on the lift.
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post #15 of 18 Old 05-06-2012, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
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An update after the work I undertook on the system.

I bled the system again paying particular attention to fluid level and insuring that the hose from the nipple was covered in fluid so as to minimise the risk of the system drawing in air.

I cleaned all ABS connections and insured that all plugs were installed firmly.

I am happy that I still get error 22 as this is the first time that the error code is consistent and has not brought up another random error.

The ABS light still stays off up to 40 odd kms and comes on after that. It will switch off if I de activate the ABS and re activate it after having attained a speed of +80km where it will remain off for such period as the car is over 60kms.

I have downloaded the Alfa Romeo ABS manual and will study it over the week. They have identical systems.

If the manual is any good I shall post it here.

Brian maybe the bleeding has helped in stabilising the error so I think I shall give it another go later.
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post #16 of 18 Old 05-18-2012, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
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I have established that VW Jaguar and Alfa Romeo use the Teves Mark II ABS system.

For those that may be interested here is the Alfa workshop manual.
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File Type: pdf Group 22 Abs.pdf (4.61 MB, 407 views)
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post #17 of 18 Old 05-19-2012, 08:34 AM
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Peter- Thanks. Saved to hard drive in a couple of places.

Taz
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post #18 of 18 Old 09-22-2012, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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An update on my saga.

I have traced the fault to the solenoid valve body.

The resistance should read anywhere between 4Ohm and 8 ohm and I am getting anywhere from 7 ohm on one circuit to + 10 Ohm on the other 5.

An article written by 2 Polish graduate students.
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File Type: pdf POLISH ABS TRANSLATION TEVES MKII.pdf (3.64 MB, 3881 views)

Last edited by a1exander; 09-22-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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