Ferrari f355 turbo setup feasable? - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 18 Old 03-06-2011, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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Ferrari f355 turbo setup feasable?

Alright, first off I understand that this might be an outrageous first post but I am looking for information about my next "project" I suppose. Well anyways, I am planning on purchasing a F355 in the near future and I understand what I need to, but of course I am doing it to accomplish one of my life long goals of owning a Ferrari. And looking at my past you would understand that I am a car modifier, as the girl always tells me I am never happy with the car in stock form.
So considering my past I want to build a turbo F355 during a winter when it will sit in the garage anyways. I have done many turbo setups on many different cars, but I am looking for a challenge and something unique, and why not accomplish a life long goal at the same time?
I am not certain that anyone here has done this or anything, but if you have I would love your input, and if you have not I still would like your input. I would be doing all the work and am sure I am capable of it, with a full service garage with every tool I would need to put together, pull apart, fabricate or fix pretty much any vehicle on the planet. Now with the Ferrari I would plan on doing the maintenance my self, I have a good understanding of their systems and all.
For questions:
1. Where would I go about getting OEM parts, what is the best place for it?
2. Is the Ferrari powerplant capable of handling boost? and if not where would I go to purchase aftermarket internals to handle the extra air and such?
3. If you have done this, what kind of tuning equipment are you using, I would love to use an AEM or Haltech standalone setup or something of that style seeing as I am very familiar with them.
4. Also if you did this where did you go about finding larger injectors, possibly manifolds, always can fabricate but would prefer to buy them, and ferrari specific parts like this?
5. I would like to drive this alot, so what are the weak links of the system such as transmission, rear end and such, I can for sure strengthen these but would need to know where the parts are.

Any tips or information you have I would love to have to gain a wealth of knowledge before lunging after this project. Thanks, Ryan.
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post #2 of 18 Old 03-06-2011, 11:33 PM
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The F355 is a beautifully balanced car in stock form. Adding turbos to it is very likely going to degrade the "driveability".
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post #3 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 05:49 AM
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There’s a guy in Oz who did a TT355 and seems to be happy. It’s not a cheap install….I think the shop that did it is selling the kit for $30k+.

The ECU you want is a motec M800, it’s worth the extra money. Injectors can be bought anywhere once you know what size you’re looking for.

To expand on Boxer’s input a bit from my experience, adding hp doesn’t harm the balance per se of a car really but it can dramatically change the driving experience. 90+% of hop-up projects result in an engine that makes more hp than stock but just flat doesn’t run as well, has dips in the torque curve, stalls or stumbles down low and is a general pain in the ass to drive around town and just isn’t something you’ll enjoy driving as much as you enjoyed the car in stock form.

Let’s say you aren’t going to build an engine in the 90% category, you’re going to do it right, use good parts and good advice and be in the 10%. In this category you will have a car that is fast and a pleasure to drive but it most likely will not be the same driving experience the stock car was. When you start talking about modifying a car what you are really talking about is re-engineering it. If you take the time to really think about what it is about the car you like and what you don’t like you should have a finished product that is everything you liked and more. If you simply say I’m going to make some mod with no real over-all plan then even if the mods are completed perfectly you may not be happy with the result.

All that said, don’t let me discourage you as I personally LOVE hop-up projects and have never been able to leave a car I own stock. I’m on my 3rd engine hop-up to my 308, the 1st 2 were good but not quite what I wanted…..but 3 time’s a charm (I hope).
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post #4 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 06:49 AM
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You're not going to find anything "off the shelf" except the kit mark mentioned for this project. The Ferrari has forged internals and can withstand a lot. The 355 has a lot of maintenance issues which leads to worn engine internals, finding one with a good engine will be your greatest trouble.

I would recommend using staged injection and running your ecu as a piggy back as opposed to full stand alone. Otherwise you're opening a whole can of worms getting it setup correctly and tuned correctly. I agree with Mark that I would lean towards the MoTec, it has much better accuracy and capability. The system I've used in the past was th DTA Fast, a great computer but not a MoTec.

A good source for OEM parts is RicambiAmerica.com


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post #5 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 07:02 AM
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Before you decide to rebuild your 355 I can think of three suggestions:

1. Try your 355 out properly first and then decide whether you can improve on it or not. For the sake of curiousity, record your best lap time in stock condition.

2. If you decide to proceed with modifying your 355, please first read mk e's story on his 308 rebuild.

3. If you are certain you belong to the 10% described by mk e, prepare to dig very deep in your pockets for a successful upgrade. Also, don't forget to include the loss of resale value.

Salve,
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post #6 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
I would recommend using staged injection and running your ecu as a piggy back as opposed to full stand alone. Otherwise you're opening a whole can of worms getting it setup correctly and tuned correctly. I agree with Mark that I would lean towards the MoTec, it has much better accuracy and capability. The system I've used in the past was th DTA Fast, a great computer but not a MoTec.

Like with many thing, when you start hotrodding it seems if you talk to 6 people you’ll get at least 12 opinions. I personally think both piggyback ECUs and staged injection are things to avoid, but certainly both can be made to work very well.

Were it my 355TT build I think I would lose the oem ECUs in favor of a single M800 and replace the OEM injectors with something large enough to handle the job. It’s more effort up front to sort the low power stuff out and get it working right again, but then there is only 1 ECU that you know exactly what it’s trying to do and no injector transition point or the need for 16 injector control channels which usually means 2 ECUs to deal with. With the M800s you can link 2 ECUs together so the pair tune like 1 ECU to get the extra 8 inj channels but it also adds $8k-$10k to the project cost by the time you’ve bought and installed everything and unless you’re talking more than 80hp to maybe 100hp/cylinder (650-800 total) I think a single injector/cyl is the way to go as long as the injectors are placed well and they on a 355.

….but as I said there are also a lot of other ways to do it that will work just fine when fully soted.
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post #7 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
Before you decide to rebuild your 355 I can think of three suggestions:

1. Try your 355 out properly first and then decide whether you can improve on it or not. For the sake of curiousity, record your best lap time in stock condition.

2. If you decide to proceed with modifying your 355, please first read mk e's story on his 308 rebuild.

3. If you are certain you belong to the 10% described by mk e, prepare to dig very deep in your pockets for a successful upgrade. Also, don't forget to include the loss of resale value.
Now it’s not exactly fair to compare a turbo install to my V12 build

The 2 supercharger set-ups I did for the car are probably much more fair a comparison and they were about 6 month projects.

The resale value question is one I’ve never really gotten my head about. If the install is done well and the car is well sorted I don’t think the mods reduce the resale price and can actually increase the price on anything but ultra rare models. This comes back to what I was saying about well sorted and mod mods not really achieving that standard. If the car is blazing fast but you can’t hold the clutch pedal down in traffic and it stumbles and parts are held in with zip-ties and hose clamps so you know you’ll have nothing but trouble with it….then you have a resale price issue. If on the other hand the car drives like stock but goes like a scalded cat anyone who takes a test drive will have a hard time not wanting it and many would be willing to pay over what they would for a stock example…the issue here though is probably not enough over stock to let you recoup much of the money you dumped in…which tends to lead to cutting corners on the install and pushing the car back into the not well sorted category.
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post #8 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 10:57 AM
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It's certainly feasible per the points above, but it might not be as rewarding as one would think. The 355 has arguably the best exhaust note of any Ferrari ever. That'd be a hell of a shame to lose.

I guess for me, the 355 falls in the "fast enough" category already in stock form. It'll run mid 4s to 60mph and has a wonderful transmission. I'd buy it, add an exhaust, and enjoy.

The 308 on the other hand is a dog in stock form by modern standards. I love the car, don't get me wrong. But you get dusted by a few V6 luxury sedans and the occasional minivan and all of a sudden tearing the engine apart, adding an aftermarket ECU, etc. don't seem like bad ideas.

Just my $.02.
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post #9 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 12:42 PM
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Would it be easier to fit a pair of superchargers (a la the Novitec 360 & 430 conversions)?
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post #10 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxer View Post
Would it be easier to fit a pair of superchargers (a la the Novitec 360 & 430 conversions)?
Buying a kit is generally easier on everything but your wallet

I’d guess a 360 kit could be installed on a 355 but you’d need the 360 intake and probably the 360 ecu because I’m guessing they are re-programming the stock ecu…maybe and th eextra parts would drive the cost up a bit.

I think the most important question goes back to your first post about the car’s balance and is “what exactly are you hoping to get out of the modification project and what are you willing to give up to get it?” There are a lot of ways to add hp and all come with unique benefits and penalties and all change the feel of the car in different ways.

The old adage that “no one plans to fail, they simply fail to plan” come to mind followed by one of mine which is “it’s WAY easier to take something that is good and make it worse than it is to make it better”. Good planning is always the key to a good project outcome.
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post #11 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
 
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The ultimate goal of the project is to have a completely streetable beast that would do well on the street as well as on the track. I personally believe I can do everything right, which is what I plan on, no short cuts and to be honest I am not really worrying about the price of the build, because in my mind it is worth it. Now, I think if I could find a compatible twin disc ceramic clutch that works with the flywheel and transmission in the car that would achieve the stock light feel of a clutch with the gripping power needed. The reason I want to go standalone is because it is so much more capable than piggy backing on an ecu, with a standalone I could ensure that it would have reliability, great street manors, and such. Going with something like an electronic boost control module or even two or three stage manual controller could give me the ability to create two different tunes. I would say one could be called street, and other could be called race. I would also be upgrading everything else on the car to handle what I am expecting out of it, and regardless of motor quality I would prefer to alteast do a minor overhaul such as rings bearings and gaskets, if not, a full zerotime rebuild which would ensure the engine can handle it. I would like this to be a big power build, saying 800+whp which I think the car is completely capable of and would act well on a track setup so, wouldnt mind it to not only be able to run great around a roadcourse but at a drag strip as well. Kind of a jack of all trades car, and I think Ferraris make this possible with superior engineering. For fueling I was thinking finding a compatible aftermarket fuel rail, something like AEM sells, an larger AEM inline pump, and larger injectors, something capable of supporting the power. A key to this project would be complete street compatibility, meaning pump gas, Okie heat and all, so the cooling system would be upgraded and most likely alcohol injection to reduce intake temps and the risk of detonation for lean mixtures. I would prefer to make this a 1 poweradder car, no nitrous or anything along these lines, kind of cheating in my mind. Also, I want to go turbo charger because I think they sound 100 times better than a supercharger, and did I also mention they are efficent and dont suck up as much gas as a supercharger? Besides, who would not want to see a huge compressor housing peeking out from the engine compartment, and the top end boost feeling is next to nothing in my opinion. Thanks for all the input though, you guys have really given me alot of information that I need, also I will take your opinions that I should keep major modifications off the car at first to make sure its really what I want. I would most likely drive the car for a while, maybe a summer or two and would make my decision at some point, seeing as I might love the car stock and not want to change it, but I will just assume I will get the mod bug in the future so I can plan this out step by step so it is all done accordingly.

Last edited by RyAn007; 03-07-2011 at 04:29 PM.
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post #12 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 05:07 PM
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Some of the manufacturers have catalogue listings for internal parts, some don't but have made them before. I've put Ferrea valve train, JE Pistons, Carillo Rods and LA Sleeves in Ferrari and Lambo engines before as have many others.

If you're capable of spending the time to fully tune out a stand alone that is obviously a better option. I recommend the piggy back because many don't want to spend the time (or money) to get a stand alone to drive right under non WOT conditions.

I still strongly prefer staged injection though. With the type of power you want, getting an injector that operates at a reasonable duty cycle at top end will be more difficult to manipulate on the low side.

The other weak point I can foresee at that power out put will be the ignition system. You'll probably want to get into an MSD non-waste spark setup.

For the clutch, check into the thread here on CribbJ's 550. I put a custom OS Giken Triple plate in which drives and feels great, holds tons of power. It's a sintered metal setup so lifespan is great. The cost isn't stupid either.

The headers are a big weak point on stock 355's, I wouldn't turbo one of these cars without building a custom set from 321SS either.


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post #13 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 06:03 PM
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Wow, that is really hard to read with no paragraph.....a lot like my horrible spelling and mixed up thoughts.

I agree with most everything ECSofVirginia said.

At 800+ rwhp it ain't gonna run on pump gas and you're not going to do it without staged injection and you're going to need to drop the compression ratio.

The 355 is an ITB setup so I would suggest keeping the stock injectors as is and adding a set of shower injectors on top. Then run 2 sets of maps in the ecu with a toggle switch to change between then for pump and race gas.

You're going to want a pair of M800s for 16 injectors.

I've never messed with the OS gliken clutch but I have a triple disc tilton carbon-carbon in my car that I know will easily handle the kind of power you're talking about.

You definitely need a hotter spark.....lots of options there.

You'll want a new set of 321SS or inconel headers and if you are planning to street drive it 2 smaller turbos will make you a whole lot happier than a single huge turbo.....supercharging would be even better but I do understand the sound comment and that is a big part of why I pull the blower of my car and am building the 800hp (crank) naturally aspirate V12.

With the rebuild this is a $50k+ job you're talking about.
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post #14 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 10:32 PM
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Just to add another point of view. I'm coming from 20+ years of turbocharged Supra ownership, the last 10-12 of which involved some heavily modified engines.

I would agree with everything already said by ECSofVirginia and mk_e, and would caution you about wanting to double the output of this engine. In the Supra community we have any number of triple digit HP cars, and they're royal PITA's to drive on the street. Many of them turn up for dyno sessions on trailers because they're nearly impossible to drive. The Supra didn't earn its nickname "Dyno Queen" for no reason. Doubling or tripling the output of a small displacement engine is just begging for driveability problems.

One of the quotes I remember well from the first guy to put down 900 HP back in 2000 or 2001 was something to the effect "Big HP is pretty cool, but I had the most fun with this car when it was still only BPU." (meaning slightly increased boost, but still stock turbos, stock fuel system, etc.) He was referring of course to the overall experience, and the handling & balance of the car at 400-450 HP vs 900, as well as the maintenance and reliability at the lower power levels.

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High mileage, low compression, and missing on a few cylinders.....just like my cars.

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post #15 of 18 Old 03-07-2011, 11:07 PM
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Looking at the amount of work and potential cost involved, might suggest a different approach:

- come to Europe and find a high mileage well used F40

- as of 2012, very early (1987 builds) F40s will be 25 years old and therefore exempt from DOT/EPA regulations. To import one from Europe to the US will only cost shipping plus 2.5% in import duty (I assume you are US based)

- the F40s were designed to handling significantly more bhp than what was fitted in stock form and are not hard to modify, example: Ferrari F40 - All Cars for Sale - Cars for Sale - Joe Macari
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post #16 of 18 Old 03-08-2011, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cribbj View Post
I would agree with everything already said by ECSofVirginia and mk_e, and would caution you about wanting to double the output of this engine. In the Supra community we have any number of triple digit HP cars, and they're royal PITA's to drive on the street. Many of them turn up for dyno sessions on trailers because they're nearly impossible to drive. The Supra didn't earn its nickname "Dyno Queen" for no reason. Doubling or tripling the output of a small displacement engine is just begging for driveability problems.
I'll second that...my rule is I won't even help anyone do a turbo street car with over 15psi boost because at the boost threshold the car becomes just plain undriveably and there is no way to avoid the boost thershold on the street. You can get around that a bit with 2 ECU map and a boost controller for street/rtrack set-up....but a street car with oversive turbos is not very run to drive.
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post #17 of 18 Old 03-08-2011, 07:04 AM
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The 348 turbo I worked with a while back made 461whp on 1bar of boost, 91 octane pump gas, fully built internals, twin turbos,321 headers, custom intake manifold, staged shower injectors (like mk_e mentioned), fully stand alone and mechanical TiAl wastegate, BOV and air/water I/C and dual heat exchangers.

The bill was $80k when we were done. The car was as reliable as it could possibly be...but still wasn't "perfect".


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post #18 of 18 Old 03-08-2011, 08:56 AM
 
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I would second getting F40, there will plenty to keep you busy in maintaining the car. Car is enough to keep you entertained, can scare the [email protected]@@ out of you, and would be able sell it for more then you paid for it if you don't bend it.
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