308 QV fanbelt broke- again- any suggestions? - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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308 QV fanbelt broke- again- any suggestions?

Hi folks,

last night my 308 QV's fan belt failed in the same way as it did about 9 months/1500 miles ago. I just wanted to mention it here in case anybody has had a similar experience, so they could advise me what the cause might be.

Symptoms:

About 30 seconds after starting the car, the belt starts to squeal as if I'd just driven through a puddle and the belt's gotten wet. Then the squealing stops (yaay)... and the alternator warning light comes on (doh!)

When I have a look, I find that the fanbelt has turned itself into:
1. A ring of molten rubber on the water pump pulley, and
2. a collection of string around the alternator pulley.

The molten rubber on the water pump pulley is making me suspect that the bearings are worn inside the water pump and, when I'm unlucky, two ballbearings bind up on each other and prevent the pump shaft from turning.

When I turn the pump pulley by hand, it feels fine- no free play, no roughness. So does the alternator, by the way. But when it's only binding up once every nine months then maybe it's not worn enough to be so easily spotted. Anyhoo, I'm thinking it's time to pull the water pump and have a look. What say you?

All suggestions greatly appreciated (especially ones that save me having to pull the water pump )!

People often accuse me of thinking the entire world revolves around me. It doesn't. It revolves around the SUN... which shines out of my ar$e.
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post #2 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 05:54 AM
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What!? You're looking for a diagnosis over the internet?

Has the waterpump ever been rebuilt or replaced? Also might want to check the alignment of the belt between the waterpump and the alternator. The fact that it's squealing tells me that it could quite possibly be loose. Its been said that the waterpump belt must be torqued super tight in order for it to be properly installed.

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post #3 of 17 Old 03-03-2011, 08:32 AM
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Sir-
Not sure if your QV is similar to my 78 but here goes. I had same problem, flimsy little belt turned to melted snot (think that's the technical term). Checked out alternator and water pump, and tightness/ alignment of all- nothing. Thought "maybe too much heat". Built a heat shield at frame, over the front bank exhaust and no more problem. There is a heat shield at this point that shields the alternator but not long enough to help belts. I suspect mine needed this extra shield due to Tubi exhaust that was installed prior to me. If you'd like I can try to send pictures, but very simple shield-I used a scrap of stainless 20 gauge that is about 8" long, broke it @ 90 degree so some 2" down and 4" over and overlaps existing shield. Put a pop rivet in it of I've had no trouble since- belt still looks new. Hope this helps, Bill
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post #4 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 12:51 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barcheta View Post
What!? You're looking for a diagnosis over the internet?
Yip! On account of it's free and I'm a tightar$e

Quote:
Originally Posted by barcheta View Post
[i]Has the waterpump ever been rebuilt or replaced? Also might want to check the alignment of the belt between the waterpump and the alternator. The fact that it's squealing tells me that it could quite possibly be loose. Its been said that the waterpump belt must be torqued super tight in order for it to be properly installed.
There's no mention of anything done to the pump in the service history records I have, no. Alignment-wise, the pulleys are all fine. The belt only squeals in the 30 seconds before failing- that's what's making me think that the water pump is suddenly seizing and the belt's squealing and melting as it's being dragged over the suddenly-stationary pulley.

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Originally Posted by bill ward View Post
Sir-
Not sure if your QV is similar to my 78 but here goes. I had same problem, flimsy little belt turned to melted snot (think that's the technical term). Checked out alternator and water pump, and tightness/ alignment of all- nothing. Thought "maybe too much heat". Built a heat shield at frame, over the front bank exhaust and no more problem. There is a heat shield at this point that shields the alternator but not long enough to help belts. I suspect mine needed this extra shield due to Tubi exhaust that was installed prior to me. If you'd like I can try to send pictures, but very simple shield-I used a scrap of stainless 20 gauge that is about 8" long, broke it @ 90 degree so some 2" down and 4" over and overlaps existing shield. Put a pop rivet in it of I've had no trouble since- belt still looks new. Hope this helps, Bill
Ah good, 'Melted snot' is my kinda terminology! I'll have a look and see if my belts are sitting over unshielded exhaust pipe. Anything that stops me having to take off the pump sounds good to me.

Out of curiosity, can you remember if your belt squealed for a minute just prior to failing?

Thank you both for your help!

Oh PS I would like to tell the world that the 308 has, without doubt, the stupidest fanbelts I have ever seen in my life. Why did they make them so thin?? I'd expect to see this kind of thing on a Tonka toy, not an actual CAR, and certainly not on a FANCY car! There, I've said it. I feel so much better now...

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post #5 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 09:41 AM
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It is a VERY common problem with the poly belt set-up. The poly belts just plain suck, there is no other way to put it.

When you hear the squeel on start-up , shut it down as fast as you can. Often you can re-start 30-60 seconds later and be just fine to get home but it means you need to re-tension the belt when you do get home....and it needs to be TIGHT by normal belt standards, I made a little turn-buckle type tool to help me do the tensioning on mine.

Oh, watch your alternator light and I think you'll notice the squeal starts exactly when the alternator tries to kick in.
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post #6 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 01:14 PM
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2 questions; Do you know of a better alternative to flimsy belt? Short of building new pulleys etc (which I'm now thinking about) and 2- would you guess that belt should be tighter than spec- I used a gates tensioner? I'm guessing that I'd better keep a spare belt for now. bill
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post #7 of 17 Old 03-04-2011, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill ward View Post
Mark-
2 questions; Do you know of a better alternative to flimsy belt? Short of building new pulleys etc (which I'm now thinking about) and 2- would you guess that belt should be tighter than spec- I used a gates tensioner? I'm guessing that I'd better keep a spare belt for now. bill
Sort of making new pulley or trying to retro fit the earlier big belt parts, there really isn't much you can do but follow the factory spec, check it often (mine seemed good for about 3 months at a time) and carry a spare.
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post #8 of 17 Old 03-30-2011, 01:25 PM
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Same thing happened to me Saturday night. The spare belt is a great idea, until you try to get to the alternator to loosen it. And I can't see any way of getting to it.

Anyone know of a wider v channel aftermarket pulley that would fit? I am considering having some made.
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post #9 of 17 Old 03-31-2011, 09:45 AM
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Check the Pulleys for signs of rust ,this will show loose belts slipping and heating the pulley.Also check for glazing on the sides of the Belts.
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post #10 of 17 Old 03-31-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonny Law View Post
Same thing happened to me Saturday night. The spare belt is a great idea, until you try to get to the alternator to loosen it. And I can't see any way of getting to it.

Anyone know of a wider v channel aftermarket pulley that would fit? I am considering having some made.
There is no good answer...at least no an easy or cheap answer. The older moodels used normal belts and don't have this issue....and I think they 328 got new belts so you have either update or back date your belt system if you want to fix the problem.
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post #11 of 17 Old 03-31-2011, 06:57 PM
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Check the Pulleys for signs of rust ,this will show loose belts slipping and heating the pulley.Also check for glazing on the sides of the Belts.
No rust, and not a whole lot of belt left.


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There is no good answer...at least no an easy or cheap answer. The older moodels used normal belts and don't have this issue....and I think they 328 got new belts so you have either update or back date your belt system if you want to fix the problem.
The cost of finding all the pieces is almost worth having them custom made.
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post #12 of 17 Old 04-03-2011, 12:38 PM
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308 fanbelts

Sir-
If you do make new pulleys, I may be interested. I'm going to run my 1978 for another season with the heat shield I made and if any more trouble then I expect to make pulleys that would accept a better belt next winter. Perhaps if several people wanted wider pulleys would bring cost down? Bill
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post #13 of 17 Old 04-03-2011, 02:07 PM
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Same thing happened to me Saturday night. The spare belt is a great idea, until you try to get to the alternator to loosen it. And I can't see any way of getting to it.
It is a real pain to get to. On my car I would shut the key off as soon as I heard it squeal…..wait a few minutes and try again and it would usually be fine but it would get worse each day/cold start until there was no way to get the car to start without the belt squealing and of course failing if you don’t shut it down…..but the wait and re-start technique got me home at least a dozen times.
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post #14 of 17 Old 06-20-2011, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mk e View Post
It is a real pain to get to. On my car I would shut the key off as soon as I heard it squeal…..wait a few minutes and try again and it would usually be fine but it would get worse each day/cold start until there was no way to get the car to start without the belt squealing and of course failing if you don’t shut it down…..but the wait and re-start technique got me home at least a dozen times.
Mine had been squealing at start for a couple of weeks, and would quit after a couple of minutes.

A mechanic familiar with the 308's said the road side fix was to put the replacement belt on the lower main pulley and the alternator pulley. Get as much of the belt on to the water pump pulley as possible. Then with the car in 1st gear roll the car forward. Or, have one person pop or tape the starter while another keeps the belt in place. This will stretch the belt a little and should be replaced as soon as possible, but will get you back on the road.
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post #15 of 17 Old 09-04-2011, 08:39 AM
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Same on my car for a few time so far. Pulleys are clean, water pump and alternator new, alignment perfect. I guess it has to do with heat, even though my car has all the heat shields that are supposed to be there.
Also, I did notice that at night with high rpm, there was a very weak red glimmer behind the battery symbol in the IP, probably indicating slippage of the belt, in the weeks before breakage, additional to the squeak at startup.
Most I got out of a belt was about 5'500 mls.
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post #16 of 17 Old 12-04-2011, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mk e View Post
It is a VERY common problem with the poly belt set-up. The poly belts just plain suck, there is no other way to put it.

.
Any brand of belts that would be better than others?

If memory is correct, there are 3 companies that have made belts for Ferrari.
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post #17 of 17 Old 12-04-2011, 11:21 AM
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Any brand of belts that would be better than others?

If memory is correct, there are 3 companies that have made belts for Ferrari.


Nothing at all wrong with the belts. They go bad for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only. Bad bearings on one or more of the pulleys or just not installed tight enough. In either case no belt would perform any better.
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