Michelotto 308: Real or Replica? - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 32 Old 12-17-2010, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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Michelotto 308: Real or Replica?

Friends,

The rally history of Ferrari has caught my fancy and I think it is an interesting part of Ferrari's racing legacy. I was hoping there would be raced rally cars out there at decent prices but it turns out the going rate for any of the 15 Michelotto 308 that were made is around 700.000€.

Is it sacrilege to convert a 308 to a FIA Michelotto replica? It would be theoretically possible to restore it back to its original state if and when wanted in the future out of cultural and historical reasons. In practice it is of course costly considering the 25m+ of rally cage tubing welded on to the frame and all the other changes done. However, engine and chassis are still living together as an inseparable unit and if storing all original parts, restoration is possible.

What are your views?

Salve,
Capo

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post #2 of 32 Old 12-17-2010, 04:22 PM
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An interesting question and one which is sure to gather a few opposing views.

My opinion is that given the number of 308's produced they are unlikely to ever be considered as "rare" and collectible with the exception of the plastic cars.

With that as the background I would if so inclined do the proposed conversion without fear of canibalising a rare car especially given that I would be using it to replicate a rare derivative.
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post #3 of 32 Old 12-17-2010, 08:41 PM
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There are quite a few 308's out there that just arent ecomonical to fix. A relatively minor accident can total the car and reduce it to scrap. In those cases, it would be much better to build it into something more valuable than leave it to be junked. You could build one into a 288 clone, or an F40 Clone, so why not a Michelotto clone? Far better that some dolt making one into a Pasta machine.
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post #4 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 02:10 AM
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Quite right Artvonne. You don't even need an accident to put some of them in the too-expensive-to-restore catagory. I think that's in large part how the Hot
Rod niche got started. Old Model A's not worth much became the basis for a whole new car. Certainly a better alternative than the scrape heap. Capo, I say do it!

Of course, in their day, no one ever thought the Model A would be a rare or collectable car either.....
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post #5 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 02:28 AM Thread Starter
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Oops,

I realize I posted this on the owners' section of 308. I am not an owner of a 308, sorry for my mistake.

Salve,
Capo

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post #6 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
Friends,

The rally history of Ferrari has caught my fancy and I think it is an interesting part of Ferrari's racing legacy. I was hoping there would be raced rally cars out there at decent prices but it turns out the going rate for any of the 15 Michelotto 308 that were made is around 700.000€.

Is it sacrilege to convert a 308 to a FIA Michelotto replica? It would be theoretically possible to restore it back to its original state if and when wanted in the future out of cultural and historical reasons. In practice it is of course costly considering the 25m+ of rally cage tubing welded on to the frame and all the other changes done. However, engine and chassis are still living together as an inseparable unit and if storing all original parts, restoration is possible.

What are your views?

There is (or at least was) a guy over on the evil forum who is/was doing exactly this.....it's a lot of work and you need to start with a glass car I think.
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post #7 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 08:22 AM
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A company in Finland (I think) has converted a couple cars. They did an astonishing job and they are spot-on replicas except for not being Kugelfischer injected. Bank on better part of 100k to do the conversion though.
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post #8 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 08:33 AM Thread Starter
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There is (or at least was) a guy over on the evil forum who is/was doing exactly this.....it's a lot of work and you need to start with a glass car I think.
I've found a specialist in Finland, MAT (Mäkelä Auto Tuning, www.mat.fi). Ex rally driver Kari Mäkelä's shop has done a couple and it does indeed involve a great deal of work.

For financial reasons a new project won't be doable for me in at least two years since I don't want to sell any of my existent darling Ferraris. But one needs to be looking, informing oneself and enjoying the ride towards final decision on what to add to the stable.

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post #9 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
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A company in Finland (I think) has converted a couple cars. They did an astonishing job and they are spot-on replicas except for not being Kugelfischer injected. Bank on better part of 100k to do the conversion though.
Are you sure they are not Kugelfischer converted? I am expecting a reply from MAT and I will make sure to ask about the engine job as well. I was under the impression MAT is down to the detail which should include the Kugelfischer and the casette/cascade gearbox with changeble final ratio from 190km/h to 270km/h. The engine with authentic tune should be braking 300+hp at full power.

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Capo

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You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.

Last edited by il Capolino; 12-18-2010 at 09:54 AM.
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post #10 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 04:36 PM
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My thoughts and opinion:

I wouldn't mind seeing a 308 converted to a Michelotti if it was near-ready for the parts section, but not a daily driver.

The misconception that 308s are the most produced Ferrari is from VERY old statistics. The number of 308s produced (12k) is less than the number of the highest produced Ferrari - the 360 (over 12k)...and since there were over 11k 355s produced, I would venture to guess that 308 survivors, number less than the current number of 355s as well. As with all F models, the 308, 360, and 355 have limited numbers of types produced. In other words, not all 308s other than the fiberglass models are the same.

Incidentally, there were 15 million Model T's produced during its 18 year run, then it was replaced by the Model A - of which almost 5 million were built. Today, Ford's lowest selling singular car model is selling at 150,000 cars a month...and those are sales figures from a down-market, not production numbers.

So, like someone posted above, hot rodding is nothing new, and IMHO if you are saving a 308 from the salvage yard, I'd say go ahead, have fun and do it!

Last edited by Neonzapper; 12-18-2010 at 04:45 PM.
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post #11 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
Are you sure they are not Kugelfischer converted? I am expecting a reply from MAT and I will make sure to ask about the engine job as well. I was under the impression MAT is down to the detail which should include the Kugelfischer and the casette/cascade gearbox with changeble final ratio from 190km/h to 270km/h. The engine with authentic tune should be braking 300+hp at full power.
The gear kit all by itself is north of $10k last time I heard and since they are straight cut the gear whine is quite loud.
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post #12 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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The gear kit all by itself is north of $10k last time I heard and since they are straight cut the gear whine is quite loud.
Well, no wife, no mother in law so I haven't maxed out on my whining tolerance yet... I guess I'd have to go all the way if I decide to follow through on this one. Earplugs are cheap.

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post #13 of 32 Old 12-18-2010, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by il Capolino View Post
Are you sure they are not Kugelfischer converted? I am expecting a reply from MAT and I will make sure to ask about the engine job as well. I was under the impression MAT is down to the detail which should include the Kugelfischer and the casette/cascade gearbox with changeble final ratio from 190km/h to 270km/h. The engine with authentic tune should be braking 300+hp at full power.
On all the MAT 308 conversions we can see that they keep the carbs,but if think 308 engines with carbs can get 300 hp.

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post #14 of 32 Old 12-20-2010, 08:24 AM
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Well, no wife, no mother in law so I haven't maxed out on my whining tolerance yet... I guess I'd have to go all the way if I decide to follow through on this one. Earplugs are cheap.

Are you planning to race the car or is it mostly just a toy?

If you are planning to race it in an FIA sanctioned event then you need to follow the homologation papers exactly which is quite a challenge since most of the aftermarket stuff that is specified has been out of production for many years. Racing is generally the only time you would have need to change the final drive ratio, mechanical fuel injection systems are notoriously unfriendly for general street driving, and roll cages are generally EXTREMELY UNSAFE if you are not wearing a helmet and bucked in a 5 point harness. Race cars are for racing.

If you are planning to drive the car on the street your concerns are quite a bit different than on a race track. For starters you need the engine to perform well at all throttle position not just WOT. You need to be sure there is nothing for your head to bounce off of should you have an accident of any kind because you probably aren’t wearing a helmet on the street to protect you head. You need to not get stopped and ticketed for excessive noise not to mention not wanting to destroy you or your passenger’s ears and anything above 85 dB starts to cause permanent damage (yes the straight cut gears will almost certainly be above 85dB as will many exhaust options that are out there). It’s nice to be able to enter and exit the car through a door instead of sliding in through a window of over a cage diagonal.

Most people find the idea of owning a race or race replica car quite a bit more appealing than the reality of it. If you are planning this as a street car I strongly recommend doing more of a “tribute” type build than an actual “replica” as I’m certain will enjoy driving the latter significantly more than the former.
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post #15 of 32 Old 12-20-2010, 04:22 PM Thread Starter
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Are you planning to race the car or is it mostly just a toy?

If you are planning to race it in an FIA sanctioned event then you need to follow the homologation papers exactly which is quite a challenge since most of the aftermarket stuff that is specified has been out of production for many years. Racing is generally the only time you would have need to change the final drive ratio, mechanical fuel injection systems are notoriously unfriendly for general street driving, and roll cages are generally EXTREMELY UNSAFE if you are not wearing a helmet and bucked in a 5 point harness. Race cars are for racing.

If you are planning to drive the car on the street your concerns are quite a bit different than on a race track. For starters you need the engine to perform well at all throttle position not just WOT. You need to be sure there is nothing for your head to bounce off of should you have an accident of any kind because you probably aren’t wearing a helmet on the street to protect you head. You need to not get stopped and ticketed for excessive noise not to mention not wanting to destroy you or your passenger’s ears and anything above 85 dB starts to cause permanent damage (yes the straight cut gears will almost certainly be above 85dB as will many exhaust options that are out there). It’s nice to be able to enter and exit the car through a door instead of sliding in through a window of over a cage diagonal.

Most people find the idea of owning a race or race replica car quite a bit more appealing than the reality of it. If you are planning this as a street car I strongly recommend doing more of a “tribute” type build than an actual “replica” as I’m certain will enjoy driving the latter significantly more than the former.
It's an interesting point.

It looks like I have to get two 308. One tribute racer and one real racer...

Seriously, my issue is that I would really like to own a real Ferrari race car one day. Since I already own road going Ferraris I should likely be able to live with the shortcomings of a real racer. Maybe it is a better idea to buy a used Challenge? The problem with a Challenge is that it is not road legal so I can't drive it down from Lugano to Monza, Fiorano and Imola. When you can't drive the car to the events it kind of loses its fun and becomes too much of a nuisence.

Salve,
Capo

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You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.

Last edited by il Capolino; 12-20-2010 at 04:32 PM.
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post #16 of 32 Old 12-20-2010, 04:55 PM
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It's an interesting point.

It looks like I have to get two 308. One tribute racer and one real racer...

Seriously, my issue is that I would really like to own a real Ferrari race car one day. Since I already own road going Ferraris I should likely be able to live with the shortcomings of a real racer. Maybe it is a better idea to buy a used Challenge? The problem with a Challenge is that it is not road legal so I can't drive it down from Lugano to Monza, Fiorano and Imola. When you can't drive the car to the events it kind of loses its fun and becomes too much of a nuisence.
My personal experience from motorcycles was that once I ridden a real race bike out on a real race track in a real race I had almost no interest in riding a pseudo-race bike on the street or even track day type events.....and that carried over to my cars. Race vehicles are wonderful on race tracks, but on the street? No thanks. Just like with everything else, you need the right tool for the job at hand.

Get a nice 456A to tow you race car to the track and enjoy the drive to the track as much as your time on the track
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post #17 of 32 Old 12-20-2010, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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Get a nice 456A to tow you race car to the track and enjoy the drive to the track as much as your time on the track [/QUOTE]

It's yet another interesting point.

There is also the alternative of having the local dealer which arranges the track events transporting the race car (in such case a Challenge) for me to the track whilst I am going in my 430?

Alternatively, rent a garage spot at a favourite track where to keep the race car (Challange) and travel there in the 430. I hear that is possible at Ascari but I would prefer Monza which is just 50km from my house.

Owning the race car instead of using the race cars provided at the track events makes less sense but I really would like to own my own Ferrari race car one day. I have managed to gradually afford a sport Ferrari, a continent crossing Ferrari and lately also a classic Ferrari. The race Ferrari is needed to complete my spread of Ferrari cars...

The advantage with a rally Ferrari is that it is made to be driven on mountain roads so it can actually be enjoyed fairly decently on my favourite public roads. Having to wear full race kit and five point harness only adds excitement to the ritual! I wouldn't have to drive it more than on special, ritual occasions like once or twice a month. The rest of the days are for my daily driver Ferraris. I imagine it must be a special feeling to own a real race Ferrari, let alone driving it every now and then.

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Capo

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post #18 of 32 Old 01-17-2011, 07:10 AM
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On all the MAT 308 conversions we can see that they keep the carbs,but if think 308 engines with carbs can get 300 hp.

The Kugelfischer pumps made for the Michelotto are specific to that car and only that car, and very few were ever made making conversion nearly impossible. The Kugelfischer system is sort of an 'on off' type thing anyway from what I have been told.

Getting 300bhp from a carb 308 that is streetable is insanely difficult, but it has been done on multiple occasions in race spec only engines. IIRC, 317bhp on one occasion.
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post #19 of 32 Old 01-17-2011, 08:07 AM Thread Starter
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The Kugelfischer pumps made for the Michelotto are specific to that car and only that car, and very few were ever made making conversion nearly impossible. The Kugelfischer system is sort of an 'on off' type thing anyway from what I have been told.

Getting 300bhp from a carb 308 that is streetable is insanely difficult, but it has been done on multiple occasions in race spec only engines. IIRC, 317bhp on one occasion.
On the streetable aspect of bhp i think you have a good point. Please find below the answer from Kari Mäkelä upon my request:

Thank you very much for your contact and your interest in our Ferrari 308 Rallycars.

You are right, it's best to build a replica for Historic rallying and not destroy an original historical car.
Our cars are also faster, easier to handle and have much more strong roll cage than old original ones.
We use as much modern technology as allowed by FIA to have the cars easy maintenance.

Steel and vetroresina bodied are both FIA group 4 homologated. Original vetroresina cars are only 30 kilos lighter than steel bodied.
That's why we change our own light weight body panels also on the vetro cars, this we save about 70 kilos.
We can modify the steel bodied cars to super lightweight kevlar / GRP bodied.
Minimum homologation weight is 940 kg but this is impossible to reach because of strong roll cage, our best cars are 970 kilos.
Max power of engine is about 320 Hp by Weber carbs.

When you buy a basic 308 GTB, be sure the car is an original dry oil sump engined version!!!! wet sump cars are not FIA homologated.

We can build a car for what ever budget, prices starting from 100.000 EUR up to 400.000 EUR
As an example the car we are building just now to my French client takes about 4000 workman hours, our labour is 70 EUR / hour.

It's best you come to visit on my workshop in Finland and we can discuss about your project timing and budget.
The best visit time would be on March or April 2011, then my French client's car would be complete.


Best regards,
Kari Makela

Makela Auto Tuning Oy
Valskarintie 3,
69100 Kannus
Finland
Tel. 00 358 400 263 711
Fax. 00 358 68 71170
[email protected]

Salve,
Capo

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You cannot make life longer but you can make it wider and higher.
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post #20 of 32 Old 01-17-2011, 08:36 AM
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Getting 300bhp from a carb 308 that is streetable is insanely difficult, but it has been done on multiple occasions in race spec only engines. IIRC, 317bhp on one occasion.
The HP is in the heads and cams. A streetable 300+ hp carb 2V should be no problem if you're willing to dump $10k-$15k into head work, cams, shim under, ect. With EFI 320-350 should be doable I'd think.
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