348 oil pressure - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 27 Old 06-17-2010, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
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348 oil pressure

Today i had something strange with the oil pressure.
Normaly at idle the pressure is around 2.5 and when driving a very little above 5.

First i had some problem with starting the car i had to try 3 times before it started, normaly one klik and its running then i noticed that the oil pressure was just above 5 at idle and went to aroud 7 when driving. after about 20 km driving everything went to normal again.

Normal engine temprature +/- 90C and oil temprature just below 100C.

Does somebody know what this could be?

Thanks

Johan
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post #2 of 27 Old 06-17-2010, 03:23 PM
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well

- did you perhaps overfill at some point? You sound experienced but did you check the oil as required: under full temp and press? and just about 10-20 seconds after shutdown. I do it just before shutdown, wipe, look again, wipe, then shutdown and check within 30 seconds. Seems to read correctly then. IF at the low mark I add about 1/2-2/3 qt. and 'might' add a quart if a tick below low. IF above low, by a tick or tad I typicall leave alone

- Senders:
-- they can go foul on 348's [actually any Ferrari]: How long have you had the car?
Have you had your engine worked on recently? IF so how long ago. Sensors are not that bad to replace.

- Ambient temp: Have there been any dramatic weather changes such as too HOT vs other times

- What oil are you using? I use 5-40 Redline and good to go in mid-CA like weather from coast to mountains.

Kind of difficullt to know what to guess on without more personal info. and there are many more qualified here than I

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post #3 of 27 Old 06-17-2010, 04:45 PM
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Did you notice this idle pressure reading before the oil was fully warmed up? When the oil is cold the pressure will be very high at idle...the pressure won't settle until it gets warm.
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post #4 of 27 Old 06-18-2010, 02:11 AM Thread Starter
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I noticed this pressure before the oil was warmed up. I have the car for about 3 month, i never noticed that high pressure.

The only difference there was is the ambient temprature, befor the temprature was always below 20C and now the car was in the sun and the ambient temprature was +/- 25C.

Another thing that worrys me was the bad starting.

In the morning it started immidiatly and i did a ride of 100 km, at noon i left for lunch and i had to try 3 times before it starts. Afther lunch i drove back to my company and it started without any problem, about 4 hours later i was going to drive home and had the same start problem and high oil pressure. Then i stopped for fuel and the car started without any problem. Afther driving 15 minutes the oil was on temrature and the pressure normal.

When i came home i checked the oil level and it was at MAX or maybe just over MAX, but the oil temprature was 100C

I dont know what kind of oil that there is on the engine.

This mornig i started the car without any problem but i didnt drive it today.

Johan
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post #5 of 27 Old 06-18-2010, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by johandc View Post
I noticed this pressure before the oil was warmed up. I have the car for about 3 month, i never noticed that high pressure.

The only difference there was is the ambient temprature, befor the temprature was always below 20C and now the car was in the sun and the ambient temprature was +/- 25C.

Another thing that worrys me was the bad starting.

In the morning it started immidiatly and i did a ride of 100 km, at noon i left for lunch and i had to try 3 times before it starts. Afther lunch i drove back to my company and it started without any problem, about 4 hours later i was going to drive home and had the same start problem and high oil pressure. Then i stopped for fuel and the car started without any problem. Afther driving 15 minutes the oil was on temrature and the pressure normal.

When i came home i checked the oil level and it was at MAX or maybe just over MAX, but the oil temprature was 100C

I dont know what kind of oil that there is on the engine.

This mornig i started the car without any problem but i didnt drive it today.

Johan
and honestly I'm limited, but from what I 'kind of read' between the lines.

- When ever, unless someone can prove otherwise, I always change the fluids on a car when I get it: sort of "NOW I know what's in there, and the clock starts ticking from there" Change means within a month or so. You are not sure who/what was involved in the last change and/or for what climate: Change them, and my recommendation, although radiator is now on a two year schedule, all the fluids...well, I'm getting softer on the brake change fluid too, but less than two years there.

- Higher ambient [ECS Feel free to call me on this as others should...but in my limited physics ] means higher internal press/temps. which 'can' lead to more higher readouts BUT, more importantly is:

- and what I suspected, you were above MAX. Not good at all. between max and min. You should change/drain some oil out of there.

NOW, I still don't know your skill in checking the oil as this is a dry sump I'm believing so there is methods to be aware.

I also don't know what you mean by 'bad starting'.
- did it make a click click sound?
- did it just not turn over but tried
- were there indications of electronics but nothing else, not even the starter going? Sometimes, and not all models, the solenoid gets hot after a good run and it just won't turn over. Sort of an easy fix from connectors to a 'booster/capacitor' between the key and starter [an actual Ferrari fix for the 348+ model and about $80-120 US installed as Ferrari did for my Mondial T / 348]
- was it fuel? and didn't turn or mis-fired? or smell of gas?

gotta know more.

It 'almost' sounds like you might have overfilled or something else causing the starting problem yourself...don't know.

What did you do a day or so before this symptom occured?

sounding like you might have done something, but these are cars and with a few particulars can be sorted normally...don't be scared of these, they are fun...and can be maintained quite well

..tell us...can help better.

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Last edited by Granucci; 06-18-2010 at 09:52 AM.
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post #6 of 27 Old 06-18-2010, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post

- When ever, unless someone can prove otherwise, I always change the fluids on a car when I get it: sort of "NOW I know what's in there, and the clock starts ticking from there" Change means within a month or so.
I put the care to a garage for a smal maintenance oil, oil filter, airfilter,... when i bought it, but i didn't ask what kind of oil they put in. I only know what the oil is on the gearbox (Redline).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
I also don't know what you mean by 'bad starting'.
- did it make a click click sound?
- did it just not turn over but tried
- were there indications of electronics but nothing else, not even the starter going? Sometimes, and not all models, the solenoid gets hot after a good run and it just won't turn over. Sort of an easy fix from connectors to a 'booster/capacitor' between the key and starter [an actual Ferrari fix for the 348+ model and about $80-120 US installed as Ferrari did for my Mondial T / 348]
- was it fuel? and didn't turn or mis-fired? or smell of gas?
With bad starting i mean the starter works fine, everything was normal, but it just didn't start. The thirt time i tried the car started immediately.

When i came home today i tried it again and it started without any problem, I let it run for about 10 minutes and then started it again without any problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granucci View Post
What did you do a day or so before this symptom occured?
I did nothing special, i drove it 3 days ago without any abnormalities.

I checked the oil again today and it is at MAX, i will drain some.

Could it be thas the fuel was vaporized due to standing to long in the sun with a hot engine? I know this can happen with older cars but i dont know with a ferrari 348 if this can happen.

Johan

Last edited by johandc; 06-18-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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post #7 of 27 Old 06-18-2010, 11:48 AM
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These are sounding like two problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by johandc View Post
I put the care to a garage for a smal maintenance oil, oil filter, airfilter,... when i bought it, but i didn't ask what kind of oil they put in. I only know what the oil is on the gearbox (Redline).
well, that leaves many questions: Look at the invoice or call them and find out what #'s were involved to include qts. WHEN, again, was this done?
Doesn't seem to be an issue, BUT you did say OVER MAX. so WHEN seems suspect.

I use Redline only, and for the engine 5-40. Many good ones to choose, but I like RL.
Don't know what filter, but that could be a factor. again, if changed couple days ago...might be catching up> BTW NOT sure this is a major deal...drain some oil and drive it. and check

A sensor is not unusual to go out on a 348. But the > MAX is not good. IF you must drain the oil a bit, make sure the plug is put on correctly AND not leaking. I've seen a stripped one and it'll get into the clutch area and that's expensive. Take off about a quart, and you'll probably be just above MIN. AFTER a good, hot drive, while engine is still running take out dip, wipe, put back in, look, add accordingly.

Can do the same routine right after engine shutoff if you wait no longer than 30 seconds or so. Oil will slip from stick otherwise and reading is difficult.

IF oil is Dark[ish] might be time for a change. Should be clear-like.
Make sure to enter the correct oil for region, but generally a 5-40 [now, but originally a 0-50 but not truly made any longer] will suffice. You can mix synth with fossil types as in the US it's the #'s that matter.

WARMING your oil before going above 3,000 RPM is very important. Take me about 15-20 min. I always follow that rule. When temp, press are right I can drive it, but still take is moderately until I KNOW good to go.

In extreem situations it is better to add a near number oil to a really low MIN mark if no other source is available. BUT keep the numbers within range especially the weight, and within 5 degrees for the first number, IMO. I have only done this when little or no other choice but that is so rare I wouldn't speak otherwise...and years ago.
I know many will flog me for this, but better than a burned engine, which unless pushing its limits doesn't really happen that easily...OIL is blood to this engine...keep it as pure and good as possible. Too much and press goes to heartattack too low and, well, you know. Too dirty and your pipes are not healthy.


NOW - prob. two:

Quote:
With bad starting i mean the starter works fine, everything was normal, but it just didn't start. The thirt time i tried the car started immediately.

When i came home today i tried it again and it started without any problem, I let it run for about 10 minutes and then started it again without any problem.
again several areas:
- Easy first: bad connectors from battery to key to solenoid to spark: Clean, spray, reseat, try again.
- poor battery? How old...get it checked out with a mechanic's load tester
- a bad wire in sparkplug area going? but doesn't sound like the problem there.
- if heated solenoid, then might need addressing, but beware the pull and install mechanic....it would be a later step. Somehow I'm leaning in this area AFTER the 'easy first' above.
- 'could' be the alternator, which I won't get into as that is another thread, but check the other stuff first.


Quote:
Could it be thas the fuel was vaporized due to standing to long in the sun with a hot engine? I know this can happen with older cars but i dont know with a ferrari 348 if this can happen.

Johan
unlikely

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post #8 of 27 Old 06-18-2010, 03:56 PM
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The lack of consistency indicates an electrical problem, or inaccurate information.

The oil pressure should always be high when the oil temp is low, and "normal" when at optimal temperature. The higher viscosity of the oil the higher the pressures will be. To know if there is an oil system issue you need to compare pressures directly against the temperatures to be accurate.

It also sounds like the hard starting is a vapor release issue. Did you notice a large "realease" of air pressure when you opened the gas cap?
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post #9 of 27 Old 06-18-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post

It also sounds like the hard starting is a vapor release issue. Did you notice a large "realease" of air pressure when you opened the gas cap?
Josh I always get the vapor release when I open my cap. I thought this was normal no?
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post #10 of 27 Old 06-19-2010, 12:40 AM
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Josh I always get the vapor release when I open my cap. I thought this was normal no?
How much? a little is OK, a lot is a sign one of your valves for your charcoal canister might not be working properly. This sometimes can cause such vacuum as it may crush your fuel tank. But that is a rarity

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post #11 of 27 Old 06-19-2010, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post

It also sounds like the hard starting is a vapor release issue. Did you notice a large "realease" of air pressure when you opened the gas cap?
I dont know if there was a large release that day, the guy on the petrol station opened it. But normally when i go for fuel when the engine is hot there is a large release of pressure.

What I also noticed when I get fuel is that I only can refuel it with a low flow else the fuel returns. is this also normal?

Thanks for the info already.

Johan
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post #12 of 27 Old 06-19-2010, 07:50 AM
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How much? a little is OK, a lot is a sign one of your valves for your charcoal canister might not be working properly. This sometimes can cause such vacuum as it may crush your fuel tank. But that is a rarity
I think for about a few seconds.And the engine is pretty hot aswell lot's of pressure for sure.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT. Sound that out lol.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johandc View Post
I dont know if there was a large release that day, the guy on the petrol station opened it. But normally when i go for fuel when the engine is hot there is a large release of pressure.

What I also noticed when I get fuel is that I only can refuel it with a low flow else the fuel returns. is this also normal?

Thanks for the info already.

Johan
Same here Johan, I have to keep the fuel hose in only half way and go really slow. Kinda of a pisser because you dont want to over fuel and yet you really dont know if your full yet.

Cheers
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post #13 of 27 Old 06-19-2010, 09:26 AM
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I've never seen a "spec" as to how much pressure and how long of a release time is normal.

I've had vapor pressure in the tank so high before it started to depress the fuel level sending unit arm making it appear as though the car had a hole in the tank and was draining onto the ground and it spit gas out of the neck when I pulled the cap off. This was due to heat soaking for 3hrs in North Los Angeles traffic and not because of a "failure" though.

It is a good example of how "poorly" vented the fuel system in though.

You have to take it in context, if you're getting "strong" release coupled with a hot hard start...that'd be the best place to start testing.

Other wise you have to start testing the fuel pump relay and fuel pump to figure out if it's getting weak. Your symptoms don't seem to be consistent with temperature directly enough to suspect that based on the info you've given however.
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post #14 of 27 Old 06-19-2010, 01:26 PM
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might have hit it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
I've never seen a "spec" as to how much pressure and how long of a release time is normal.

I've had vapor pressure in the tank so high before it started to depress the fuel level sending unit arm making it appear as though the car had a hole in the tank and was draining onto the ground and it spit gas out of the neck when I pulled the cap off. This was due to heat soaking for 3hrs in North Los Angeles traffic and not because of a "failure" though.

It is a good example of how "poorly" vented the fuel system in though.

You have to take it in context, if you're getting "strong" release coupled with a hot hard start...that'd be the best place to start testing.

Other wise you have to start testing the fuel pump relay and fuel pump to figure out if it's getting weak. Your symptoms don't seem to be consistent with temperature directly enough to suspect that based on the info you've given however.

somehow I was sticking to the electrical vs [not possible] vapor lock as the answer, but I think you hit it.

http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/sh...ndial+canister

Been having a similar problem the last month on the 456. Opening the gas cap gives a 'whoosh' which to me means not venting.

taking your advice today, I drove to NASCAR race at Infineon and back to Sonoma, parked at Whole Foods, bought bbq 'stuff' and KNEW it woud NOT start for awhile. Sure enough no turnover or engagement at all although all the electricals were in order: I opened the gas cap---big whoosh, went back in and it started right up

Talked with Brian Crall about this a couple weeks ago and he originally leaned towards connectors but then we got around to the gas tank. He said would be easy to remove and place new seals in.

BTW, that link above is a HUGE problem. Mine was EMPTY. Sucked all the carbon bits into the air-intake valve area especially the #3 and #6 where you can trace the carbon bits on the inside cover. THIS is a big problem.

We are going to install filters of sort between the canister and the valves to prevent this: Car ran fine but the insides--whew---what a carbon backed mess.

have before and after of such and post later. That canister is 'interesting' ...SO Might want to look into that as my Mondial T and yours might have a similar problem.

not to mention the line from gat tank to the canister might be broken in that IIRC solenoid[?]

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post #15 of 27 Old 06-19-2010, 04:40 PM
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Right on Granucci, real glad to hear we've all managed to solve at least one issue today! Mr. Crall is a sharp SOB, and it's difficult to second guess his opinions...none the less there's no way to know what's going on sometimes without doing some testing of some sort. Shooting from the hip can be quite difficult.

In addition to the problem you've pointed out with the charcoal canister I know there's been discussion about the fuel tank gaskets (generally when the pump is internally mounted) breaking down and being run through any which one fo the open ports on the fuel tanks. Obviously also quite problematic and a potential cause of fuel starvation or perhaps poor vapor venting??
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post #16 of 27 Old 06-22-2010, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
Right on Granucci, real glad to hear we've all managed to solve at least one issue today! Mr. Crall is a sharp SOB, and it's difficult to second guess his opinions...none the less there's no way to know what's going on sometimes without doing some testing of some sort. Shooting from the hip can be quite difficult.

In addition to the problem you've pointed out with the charcoal canister I know there's been discussion about the fuel tank gaskets (generally when the pump is internally mounted) breaking down and being run through any which one fo the open ports on the fuel tanks. Obviously also quite problematic and a potential cause of fuel starvation or perhaps poor vapor venting??

Well, it helped. Later it was still very problematic. Seems I have to either leave the cap off or something else. It is not solved, but does definetly help.

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post #17 of 27 Old 06-23-2010, 09:58 AM
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bump

Might have hijacked this thread, but still on topic:

ok, now I'm a bit lost. Believe heat is an issue. Yesterday I stopped after a 40 min. up the wine valley run, not over 60MPH

but, after about a 20 min. stop at the store, the same problem.

tried the gas cap approach and even opened the flapper in the neck to help: nothing. not even an engagement.

opened hood noted a LOT of head so as usual the 456 generates too much heat but at times, like mine now, now bleeding it off fast enough.

even reset the ECUs by battery off switch and on. Gas cap several times.

FINALLY, after 15 min. of waiting a pretending to read stuff and watching my beer get warm,

I decided to just lift the hood and wait about five min. Started right up with hood still up.

Heat has some issue. Perhaps the gas area still as in lock and can't bleed properly, but like I've said before

cold/cool days as in rain/fog not really an issue. I was leaning toward current and connectors: Brian still knows that to be an issue and Dave Helm's connectors need to be there.

Well, it'll hopefully be off to Brian's near fall or sooner, depending: IF he wants it, has the room and I have the vehicles to support.

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post #18 of 27 Old 06-23-2010, 10:13 AM
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Fuel tank should only hold about 2 psi max but when the tank is low the volume is very large and 2 psi with that volume can be enough to blow the cap out of your hand.




There is absolutely no connection between pressure in the tank and a no crank situation. Your symptoms are classic insufficient power to the starter. That can be because the starter is bad and requires more current than is available in the car or bad battery or a poor connection. Your car has a history of battery problems. Those need to be resolved to make that thing reliable. It is no fun wondering if a car is going to start this time.
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post #19 of 27 Old 06-23-2010, 10:16 AM
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Johan. You have low voltage. 348 has known alternator problems and known problems with the quick disconnects in the battery cables. They were a very poor design. There are also multiple battery cable junctions in those cars that have been problematic. Some models had battery switches too. Get a diagram and go over the entire system. If the alternator is not already bad any of those problems can kill it.
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post #20 of 27 Old 06-23-2010, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
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Fuel tank should only hold about 2 psi max but when the tank is low the volume is very large and 2 psi with that volume can be enough to blow the cap out of your hand.
I need to clarify: Vacuum, not pressure forcing out. The whoosh, is air rushing into the tank. IF I were to, and have actually done this one about two years ago, overtightened the cap I cannot get it off [actually had to drive home---block away---get out the pliers and loosen]. I now tighten cap to the FERRARI lettering that reads correctly and the cap is in, what I would call, decent tightness and somewhat loose. Still, at that point, requires a nice handshake to unscrew when time to refill again. Without fail it is a suction not an exhale almost every time unless it sits for many hours.


Quote:
There is absolutely no connection between pressure in the tank and a no crank situation.
Ok: You know me, worry beads. But your diagnosis has always been spot on.

Quote:
Your symptoms are classic insufficient power to the starter. That can be because the starter is bad and requires more current than is available in the car or bad battery or a poor connection. Your car has a history of battery problems. Those need to be resolved to make that thing reliable. It is no fun wondering if a car is going to start this time.
I have GOT to rip out that previous owners bastardized electronics. Going back to OEM Radio...as you know already jerked out that [stupid] getto boom box bass in the trunk. That stupid alarm....sigh.

how's the shop space

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