365 GTC/4 vs 365 GT4 2+2 - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 34 Old 11-10-2015, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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365 GTC/4 vs 365 GT4 2+2

Hello All,

In the Nov 2015 FML the asking price for a 365 GTC/4 is $362k USD, while its successor, the 365 GT4 2+2, is $40k USD. I suspect that the sleeker/fastback looks of the 365 GTC/4 and its association with the Daytona are two reasons for the significant price different. Also, the earlier 365 2+2 has a FML current asking price of $270k USD, again much higher than the 365 GT4 2+2.

According to the Maranello Concessionaires production numbers, there were 525 365 GT4 2+2 produced versus 500 365 GTC/4 and 800 365 2+2, which makes the 365 GT4 2+2 one of the lowest produced Ferrari models. So why is there such a large difference in pricing?

What am I missing because these pricing values are not logical?

I'm asking these questions since I'm looking at a 1974 365 GT4 2+2 with only 30,000 km (18,000 mi), one owner, originally from Germany (recently imported to North America), in very good shape and driving order. But the asking price of $113k USD is almost triple the current FML asking price. Is this the 365 GT4 2+2 the next Ferrari model to have its price significantly increased or is $113k simply far too much?

Thanks in advance,
Gianni

1999 Ferrari 550 Maranello FHP; 1999 Ferrari 456M GT; 1996 Buick Riviera; 2008 Bentley GT; 2010 Lotus Evora; 1969 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV;
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post #2 of 34 Old 11-10-2015, 08:17 PM
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Gianni- Same engine and transmission, just a stretched wheelbase on the GT4. All about the elegant Pininfarina fastback styling and the association with the contemporary Daytona for the GTC/4. Although there were only 525 GT4s, there were 501 400 GTs, 1294 400is, and 576 412s, all with virtually identical styling.

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post #3 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 02:34 AM
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I'll second what Taz says, and add my opinion that $113 is far too much. I think the seller got too far ahead of the market trend.

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post #4 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 04:47 AM
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The FML prices have never made ANY sense to me. When I was very well versed in the market on BB's and Daytona's, the FML prices were always lagging way behind, and they would never come even within 75% of what was for sale in the same issue (and this was in a relatively steady market, before the big rise in prices). I would not pay them any attention. Do your own research.

$40k for a 365 GT4 2+2 is a ridiculously low price. I dare anyone to find one for that, rust bucket or not. They are very seldomly on the market, so assessing their price is difficult. But I do know someone that owns 2 of them, and a 400. I could ask him what he thinks the market is doing at the moment.

I do know that you would pay much, much more than $40k in Europe, and so if this car was recently imported then the price is not a surprise. They have at least doubled in price from what I can gather in recent years.

I also know that these cars are very, very expensive to get right and if you pay $40k for a reasonable one, and $113k for a great one, the latter can actually be cheaper than the former once you get them to the same standard. Please note that engine rebuilds are $40k ish.

I can't tell you if the car in question is too expensive. But what I can tell you is that there are examples that are worth that, at least to me.


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post #5 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 04:50 AM
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Actually, I was wrong. There are quite a number for sale in Germany.

Ferrari 365 Angebote bei mobile.de

Prices range from 79k to 175k. Still think USD113k is too much?


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post #6 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 04:52 AM
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Actually, I was wrong. There are quite a number for sale in Germany. And the market has risen significantly since I last checked.

Ferrari 365 Angebote bei mobile.de

Prices range from 79k to 175k. Still think USD113k is too much?


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post #7 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 05:16 AM
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Onno,
I agree that they are very expensive to sort out, so much so that one in disrepair would probably not make financial sense.
However, I still think six figures for a 365/400/412 is too much.
Of course, in the Ferrari world, there is some truth to the saying "you can never pay too much, just too soon."
There may be some parallel lessons in the current SCM article regarding 250 2+2s.

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Last edited by Killer58; 11-11-2015 at 04:20 PM.
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post #8 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 09:21 AM
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post #9 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
Actually, I was wrong. There are quite a number for sale in Germany.

Ferrari 365 Angebote bei mobile.de

Prices range from 79k to 175k. Still think USD113k is too much?


Onno
Hello All,

Many thanks to all for your replies. They have given me good direction.

Terry, as always, your input is highly regarded. Adding up your numbers, it comes to a total of about 2,800 365 GT4/400's, which is still very far from other high production Ferraris.

Onno, I have also seen UK and European 365 GT4s for upwards of 120,000, which really confused me when I looked at the FML asking prices, so thanks again for your input. Maybe the next 365 GT4 auctioned in the USA will change the pricing landscape in North America.

JazzyO, every time I look at the engine bay and see 6 carburetors with piping running everywhere, it scares the hell out of me! Although the photo of the engine bay of the car of interest looks well organized, very clean, and I have an excellent mechanic who has worked on this model in the past. But your comments weigh on my mind about the maintenance cost of this model and making sure that I get the "right" 365 GT4 at the beginning.

I'll post some photos here as soon as I receive them from the dealer.

Regards,
Gianni

1999 Ferrari 550 Maranello FHP; 1999 Ferrari 456M GT; 1996 Buick Riviera; 2008 Bentley GT; 2010 Lotus Evora; 1969 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV;
Past cars: 1965 Corvette Stingray Roadster; 1974 Corvette Stingray.
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post #10 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 07:54 PM
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Gianni- What always scared me was access to the distributors. On my Daytona, you could pull the distributors in less than 5 minutes, but they are buried under the cowl on the GTC/4 and GT4. Plus you had to pull the carbs to adjust the valve clearances. So not impossible, but a lot of extra work.

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post #11 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer58 View Post
Onno,
I agree that they are very expensive to sort out, so much so that one in disrepair would probably not make financial sense.
However, I still think six figures for a 365/400/412 is too much.
Of course, in the Ferrari world, there is some truth to the saying "you can never pay too much, just too soon."
There may be some parallel lessons in the current SCM article regarding 250 2+2s.

I just wonder what you base this on, David. How many have been for sale in the US, what was their asking price, and what was their condition? Were they manual gearbox or automatic?

One thing you do have to keep in mind is that this model has been unwanted for decades, thus prices were low and consequently most have been in the hands of people who really could not afford them. There are many, many dogs out there, even if they may hide in nice looking clothing.

The question is also: when is too soon? If the market is already double that of US prices in Europe, then surely a correction will follow soon. Buying the best, even if it is too expensive at the moment, then makes a lot of sense. Fact is, I have paid "too much" in the past, and it has always been the right decision.


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post #12 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 08:32 PM
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Let's look at some evidence. I can't find much, but I've got two price points.

This one for sale in the US at 59.5k. Will take at least $100k to sort out.

1974 Ferrari 365 GT4 2+2 for sale: Anamera

One for sale in the US, looks nice. $139k. 1974 Ferrari 365 GT4 2+2 = 41k miles clean Blue $139k For Sale on Car And Classic UK [C670466]

Both cars seem to confirm that 3 figures is the new standard for 365 GT/4 2+2's (horrible model name, BTW).


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post #13 of 34 Old 11-11-2015, 08:48 PM
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One more point I would like to make:

Buying and owning a classic Ferrari V12 (40 years old or older) is an experience that is different than the theories you have about it beforehand. Personally, I have burnt my fingers and I have been very lucky, and the 3 cars that I have owned have all taught me:

1. There are cars for sale, and then there are special cars for sale. The amount of money needed to go from the former to the latter is huge. Just ask Paul, who bought my 365BB, which was not a special one, and who turned it into a special one.
2. You cannot take market prices from the internet and then apply that to a special car, especially in a small market. The most expensive 330GTC I could find on the internet in 2009 was €185k. I bought mine for €235k. And it was a good deal. The owner knew how good the car was, and how difficult they are to find. I had to beg him to sell it to me. And I never, ever, regretted paying that price, even if prices had not risen afterwards.

If you buy the car for yourself, and you plan to keep it, AND you are not looking forward to an expensive restoration project (which can be totally worth the money, make no mistake), then always buy the best on the market, and be prepared to pay a premium for it. It will still be much cheaper than restoring, you will be proud to show the car anywhere, and it will give you the true Ferrari experience by running as it should and being reliable (yes, that is actually possible).

The caveat here is of course - what premium should you pay, is the seller being reasonable? But my experience is that the true connaisseur that sells his car, will sell it for less than he knows it to be worth, as long as it goes to a new owner who is also a true enthousiast. I have found it pays to know the car well before you buy it. Always try to buy directly from the owner, or at least meet the owner if at all possible.

All my 2 cents, of course, there will be countless people who disagree. But most owners who love their cars and have the money to keep it in great shape would agree with me, I think.


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post #14 of 34 Old 11-12-2015, 01:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
I just wonder what you base this on, David. How many have been for sale in the US, what was their asking price, and what was their condition? Were they manual gearbox or automatic?
Onno
Onno,
I have been quasi-watching their prices for about 18 months, and only in the US. We're looking for a 2+2 as well - in our case a 456 (BTW a car which in many respects could fit the conversation we're having). So the 400/412 have been swept up in our search as reference points / long-shot candidates.

I've only seen one that was what you'd call a "special" car. The rest needed work or were very questionable. I agree with what you state above. In fact, when the "special" 456 comes along, I will have absolutely no regret following your example and paying a substantial premium.

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post #15 of 34 Old 11-12-2015, 02:59 AM
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Good luck with the search David, hope you find a nice one! Lovely model, the 456.


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post #16 of 34 Old 11-12-2015, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
One more point I would like to make:

Buying and owning a classic Ferrari V12 (40 years old or older) is an experience that is different than the theories you have about it beforehand. Personally, I have burnt my fingers and I have been very lucky, and the 3 cars that I have owned have all taught me:

1. There are cars for sale, and then there are special cars for sale. The amount of money needed to go from the former to the latter is huge. Just ask Paul, who bought my 365BB, which was not a special one, and who turned it into a special one.
2. You cannot take market prices from the internet and then apply that to a special car, especially in a small market. The most expensive 330GTC I could find on the internet in 2009 was 185k. I bought mine for 235k. And it was a good deal. The owner knew how good the car was, and how difficult they are to find. I had to beg him to sell it to me. And I never, ever, regretted paying that price, even if prices had not risen afterwards.

If you buy the car for yourself, and you plan to keep it, AND you are not looking forward to an expensive restoration project (which can be totally worth the money, make no mistake), then always buy the best on the market, and be prepared to pay a premium for it. It will still be much cheaper than restoring, you will be proud to show the car anywhere, and it will give you the true Ferrari experience by running as it should and being reliable (yes, that is actually possible).

The caveat here is of course - what premium should you pay, is the seller being reasonable? But my experience is that the true connaisseur that sells his car, will sell it for less than he knows it to be worth, as long as it goes to a new owner who is also a true enthousiast. I have found it pays to know the car well before you buy it. Always try to buy directly from the owner, or at least meet the owner if at all possible.

All my 2 cents, of course, there will be countless people who disagree. But most owners who love their cars and have the money to keep it in great shape would agree with me, I think.


Onno
Onno, you've written what could be called a syllabus on finding and buying an older Ferrari. I was so-o lucky 37 years ago to find precisely the one Ferrari in the world for me, the 365GTC speciale built by Enzo for Leopoldo Pirelli, a 330GTC with a factory-installed typ245 engine that thereafter created the 365GTC. I paid Luigi Chinetti Sr. about 25% more than the then market for GTC's and paid Nereo Iori, former Chinetti & NART racing mechanic, almost an equivalent amount to do a complete mechanical rebuild, new bearings, rings, valves, guides, valve springs, cams, rebuilt transaxle and while he was there, new Lobro half-shafts, suspension and brakes, the works. Nereo even line-bored the crank and cams by hand.

Then I enjoyed that car for almost thirty years, sent it to the Petersen Museum for their 'Ferrari at Fifty' exhibition in 1997 where I met Piero Ferrari and Sergio Pninfarina. Even tracked it at Watkins Glen, perhaps a bit more gently than you did yours. Sold her in 2007 at David Gooding's Pebble Beach auction, hammer price $345,000., the proceeds going to buy my 575M and 412GT and F355 and Maserati Spyder and Cadillac STS-V!

In 2012 my buyer sold her at Bonham's Scottsdale auction, hammer price: $800,000. the single sale that blew the top off the market for 1960s Ferraris.

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post #17 of 34 Old 11-12-2015, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
 
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Hello All,

I'm glad this thread has developed good discussion. It's certainly given more insight into purchasing and owing an "older" Ferrari.

At this stage of my two-year Ferrari search, it's come down to:

"not what I want to own", but rather,
"what is available to own".

Unfortunately, the used Ferrari availability in Canada is very limited. So it's either:

1. be patient and wait longer while prices go even higher, or
2. buy the best available Ferrari in my price range and hopefully be happy with it.

Here are some photos of the 365 GT4 2+2 of interest:

- 1974 365 GT4 2+2 with only 30,000 km (18,000 mi),
- one owner, originally from Germany (recently imported to Canada),
- all original, including paint,
- for sale by a dealer that specializes in 70s and 80s Ferraris,
- the dealership owner drove this car this past summer, about 1,000 km, and reported it to be in excellent shape and driving order.

Again, many thanks to everyone for your input. Please keep them coming!

Regards,
Gianni
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post #18 of 34 Old 11-12-2015, 06:03 PM
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She looks like one I could go for. I would make sure to have budget available for improvement and repairs. 10k minimum. I'm not suggesting a bad car, I'm suggesting a good car will easily need that in the first year. You may of course be lucky, but in my experience that is rare. And don't forget that reports of "driving well" mean very little. My 330GTC was purportedly the best on the market, but I did spend about $25k improving her in the first 2 years. THEN she was perfect. Very few owners, don't forget, know these cars well. I read a 1990 road test of a 330GTC some years ago - it read nothing like my car, and it must have been a polished turd.

My biggest worry, if I lived in Canada, would be finding a best-friend-specialist. With cars like these you need a good partnership with your mechanic, once you have found the one with the right knowledge. Marrying his sister might help.

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post #19 of 34 Old 11-13-2015, 04:41 AM
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Given her age, she looks to be in very good shape. Especially if the details you've been given above are accurate.

However, she has done a tremendous amount of sitting in her 40+ year life.
I would want a very thorough PPI to and service record review to refine the reserve budget amount Onno mentions.
My 04 Spider required just shy of his $25K to remedy the effects of little use during less than 1/4 of your car's age.

If you make the assumption that the car will have comparable needs, you're near $135-140K for what Onno calls a non-special car.
You're well into 430 and California money at that price, cars that would presumably (though not guaranteed) have fewer needs.

I don't make that comparison to say you should buy one of those instead, nor disregard the 365.
I meant to further explain why I thought the asking price was too high.
Unless of course it is or will be a special car, or simply the car of your dreams.
If that's the case, then grab it and let the Ferrari experience begin.

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post #20 of 34 Old 11-13-2015, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
She looks like one I could go for. I would make sure to have budget available for improvement and repairs. 10k minimum. I'm not suggesting a bad car, I'm suggesting a good car will easily need that in the first year. You may of course be lucky, but in my experience that is rare. And don't forget that reports of "driving well" mean very little. My 330GTC was purportedly the best on the market, but I did spend about $25k improving her in the first 2 years. THEN she was perfect. Very few owners, don't forget, know these cars well. I read a 1990 road test of a 330GTC some years ago - it read nothing like my car, and it must have been a polished turd.

My biggest worry, if I lived in Canada, would be finding a best-friend-specialist. With cars like these you need a good partnership with your mechanic, once you have found the one with the right knowledge. Marrying his sister might help.

Onno
Not certain how one would do this when buying a car from Europe but I would not purchase any 'pre-owned' car without a complete pre-purchase inspection by a truly expert independent mechanic. This is a 41 year-old car showing 29,000 km (18,000 miles) that cannot possibly be correct, perhaps once or twice around the 'clock'.

ah, just saw Killer's post to the same effect.

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