Gearbox revision - Ferrari Life
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 54 Old 10-15-2013, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Gearbox revision

As wintertime is imminent I decided to use the time to overhaul "D"'s gearbox. Having driven "D" well over 50'k and from previous owners restoration time in '94/'95 another 30'k, I experienced 2 slight problems: Firstly, the 3 gear synchro was not fresh since I bought the car and secondly, just lately, the first gear sprung out from time to time. My mechanic told me that the first gear problem could possibly come from a de-aligned gearchange switching-rod (my english...sorry), but as the synchro problem would not be solved with that, I decided to take out the gearbox and open it to see what exactly needs Attention to be rady for the next long miles. After that is done, my mechanic suggested to align the gear change switching-rod by changing it's inbetween joints with a screwed and more exact (less leeway in movement aloud) screwed joints version which he's done with some Daytonas previously. I would be inclined to do according to his suggestions as "exactness" in gearchanging mode is always a welcome. Any thoughts on this by you ?

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 54 Old 10-15-2013, 10:58 PM
Owner
 
JazzyO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Ferrari Life Posts: 6,392
On my 365BB, I found that the first gear would jump out sometimes too. The reason was that the box had become very slightly misaligned with the H-gate plate above it, preventing the gear lever to move completely forward (perhaps 95% out of a 100%). Due to the vibration it would then occasionally pop out. Perhaps a similar thing might be the case with yours? Should be an easy fix without taking the box apart.


Onno



Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

Future: No idea
Present: 458 Italia, 550 Maranello
Past: 365BB x 2,
330GTC
JazzyO is offline  
post #3 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
On my 365BB, I found that the first gear would jump out sometimes too. The reason was that the box had become very slightly misaligned with the H-gate plate above it, preventing the gear lever to move completely forward (perhaps 95% out of a 100%). Due to the vibration it would then occasionally pop out. Perhaps a similar thing might be the case with yours? Should be an easy fix without taking the box apart.


Onno
You can't change the synchro ring without opening the case.

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
 
post #4 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 05:39 AM
Owner
 
550_Maranello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cesena - Italy
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by 212Export View Post
You can't change the synchro ring without opening the case.
Hi 212,
I had problem similar on my old 550, sometimes 3rd gear grind during 4-3 step, I had removed gearbox and revised by myself, I changed synchronizer rings (zf type) of 3 & 4 and replaced fork for 3-4 gears because consumed.
For me you must open gear box and:
1- check syncronized rings
2- check the syncro teeth consumation in the gear
3- check the syncro teeth consumation in the hub shift ring
4- check the gap between fork and hub shift ring.
5- at assembly verify and eventually adjust the lever gear with the gear shift shaft on gearbox.
Apparently the syncronized system of daytona are very similar to that alfa romeo giulia, (elastic ring), different to the ZF type based on bronze cone ring.
Pictures attached are of giulia and drw is of Daytona.
If points 2-3&4 are consumed can be reject the gear also if the lever arm is correctly aligned, because the teeth work in a conical portion and not in cilindrical portion.
If points 1&4 are consumed can be a low syncronization torque and consequently grind.
In a transaxle gear system the synchronizer rings have strong work because during the synchronization phase they must to win the an moment of inertia bigger than an gearbox directly coupled with the engine, the increasing is due to the inertia of transaxle shaft.
Last generation of gearbox are fitted of multicone synchronizer that multiply the torque and reduce the shift force.
For example, F 550 have double cone on 1-2 and single cone for others and it only with lever hand but 575 have 3 cone in 1-2 and double for others in order to have a sure synchronization with the F1 system, that not permits fault shift.
Sure your mechanic will be more expert than me.
I am waiting for your developments ....
Attached Images
     

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'

Last edited by 550_Maranello; 10-16-2013 at 06:28 AM.
550_Maranello is offline  
post #5 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by 550_Maranello View Post
Hi 212,
I had problem similar on my old 550, sometimes 3rd gear grind during 4-3 step, I had removed gearbox and revised by myself, I changed synchronizer rings (zf type) of 3 & 4 and replaced fork for 3-4 gears because consumed.
For me you must open gear box and:
1- check syncronized rings
2- check the syncro teeth consumation in the gear
3- check the syncro teeth consumation in the hub shift ring
4- check the gap between fork and hub shift ring.
5- at assembly verify and eventually adjust the lever gear with the gear shift shaft on gearbox.
Apparently the syncronized system of daytona are very similar to that alfa romeo giulia, (elastic ring), different to the ZF type based on bronze cone ring.
Pictures attached are of giulia and drw is of Daytona.
If points 2-3&4 are consumed can be reject the gear also if the lever arm is correctly aligned, because the teeth work in a conical portion and not in cilindrical portion.
If points 1&4 are consumed can be a low syncronization torque and consequently grind.
In a transaxle gear system the synchronizer rings have strong work because during the synchronization phase they must to win the an moment of inertia bigger than an gearbox directly coupled with the engine, the increasing is due to the inertia of transaxle shaft.
Last generation of gearbox are fitted of multicone synchronizer that multiply the torque and reduce the shift force.
For example, F 550 have double cone on 1-2 and single cone for others and it only with lever hand but 575 have 3 cone in 1-2 and double for others in order to have a sure synchronization with the F1 system, that not permits fault shift.
Sure your mechanic will be more expert than me.
I am waiting for your developments ....

I feel like an idiot....not even being able to totally restore a simple thing like a Daytona gearbox just by myself.......

Joke aside Fabio, thanks for that great documentation, wealth of Information !!! I still will give it to the mechanic. Friday morning 7am meeting, taking the box apart together and we will decide what has to be done...but, as always, I will not save in the wrong moment as this gearbox (hopefully under my hands) has many future miles to work on.

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #6 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 07:55 AM
Owner
 
Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,833
Replacing the universal joints in the shifter rod is a good idea. They get loose and sloppy with age.

As far as popping out of gear goes, wear of the 1st/Rev shift fork and slider is possible. Shift forks in Daytonas were vastly better than the previous transaxles and that would surprise me a little but I would replace all the sliders with all the syncros.

Personally I would also replace all the ring gear bolts and use a high strength Locktite on them. They have been known to come loose or break on Daytonas destroying the ring and pinion gears in the process.
Brian is offline  
post #7 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 08:31 AM
Owner
 
550_Maranello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cesena - Italy
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,232
212,
do you have Daytona Workshop Manual?

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'
550_Maranello is offline  
post #8 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Replacing the universal joints in the shifter rod is a good idea. They get loose and sloppy with age.

As far as popping out of gear goes, wear of the 1st/Rev shift fork and slider is possible. Shift forks in Daytonas were vastly better than the previous transaxles and that would surprise me a little but I would replace all the sliders with all the syncros.

Personally I would also replace all the ring gear bolts and use a high strength Locktite on them. They have been known to come loose or break on Daytonas destroying the ring and pinion gears in the process.
Yes, we plan to do all that without compromise as the box is open anyway. Thanks Brian for your Input !

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #9 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by 550_Maranello View Post
212,
do you have Daytona Workshop Manual?
Yes i do. Why ?

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #10 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 09:58 AM
Owner
 
550_Maranello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cesena - Italy
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,232
Quote:
Originally Posted by 212Export View Post
Yes i do. Why ?
Nothing, only because is useful to work, good way that you have.
good work ....

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'
550_Maranello is offline  
post #11 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 12:50 PM
Owner
 
wheels1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Ferrari Life Posts: 260
Ferrari UK stock some of the parts, but not all the parts for the gear box are available anymore, so don't discard anything, until you have the new part, as you may need it to have new parts made, the guy that did mine, had to have about 3 pieces made from memory.
This is the box of old parts he gave me [ there was quite a lot].
Grant
Attached Images
 
wheels1 is offline  
post #12 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by 550_Maranello View Post
Nothing, only because is useful to work, good way that you have.
good work ....
Agree Fabio. It's great to have and to mentally follow a little what the mechanic is doing. However, as always in life, you need professional experience to really understand things and details.

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #13 of 54 Old 10-16-2013, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheels1 View Post
Ferrari UK stock some of the parts, but not all the parts for the gear box are available anymore, so don't discard anything, until you have the new part, as you may need it to have new parts made, the guy that did mine, had to have about 3 pieces made from memory.
This is the box of old parts he gave me [ there was quite a lot].
Grant
Thanks for your advice, Grant. Parts are fully available, we cleared that.. But most importantly good parts, as I learned it seems a lot of minor metal and fabrication quality parts are floating around.

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #14 of 54 Old 10-17-2013, 01:48 AM
Owner
 
550_Maranello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cesena - Italy
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,232
Hi 212,
just this morning I have complete dismounted a gearbox of old fiat 500 F that is mounted in a little tractor who made (in all parts) by my father some years ago ... The general problem of those gearboxes was a reject of 1 & RM gear and lot of noise in 1 gear .... I buyed on market a kit of new gears and now i'm working in progress ...
This is a very simple gearbox .... nothing syncro, frontal grafts like a racing cars .... At that period (1960/1970)also the womens was able to make twice gas for downshift ..
We expect pictures of your baby .... Daytona gearbox ....

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'
550_Maranello is offline  
post #15 of 54 Old 10-17-2013, 02:05 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by 550_Maranello View Post
Hi 212,
just this morning I have complete dismounted a gearbox of old fiat 500 F that is mounted in a little tractor who made (in all parts) by my father some years ago ... The general problem of those gearboxes was a reject of 1 & RM gear and lot of noise in 1 gear .... I buyed on market a kit of new gears and now i'm working in progress ...
This is a very simple gearbox .... nothing syncro, frontal grafts like a racing cars .... At that period (1960/1970)also the womens was able to make twice gas for downshift ..
We expect pictures of your baby .... Daytona gearbox ....
Oh. Fabio at work, a specialist ! Compliments. Yes, many things have changed in Italy since the golden 60's not only the shifting abilities of womens...... But where not....?

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #16 of 54 Old 10-17-2013, 10:36 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,856
Fabio, 212- Double clutching, I remember it well. Old Corvette owners manuals (1961 in particular) recommended doing it even though the transmissions were fully synchronized. An art rapidly becoming lost and one step more advanced than simple heel and toe downshifts. On some of the trucks I drove, you had to double clutch on upshifts, too.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
post #17 of 54 Old 10-17-2013, 11:56 AM
Owner
 
550_Maranello's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cesena - Italy
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,232
Terry,
Yes is an art rapidly becoming lost
Probably also I will lose in the future, I wanted to a F1 gearbox ... hahaha
212 - attached pictures of my today work, I have disassembled, clean and partially assembled the gearbox of 500 F, you note the consume of gears in comparison to the new.
Now look forward to your work photos ....
that's joke, my gearbox is very simple, your more complicate .... need more time, and more attention.
Good work !!!
Attached Images
         

Fabio

PRESENT: 575 F1 HGTC ROSSO CORSA 2004' - MB CLS 350 CGI 2007'
PAST: 550 ROSSO CORSA 1998' - MB CLK 240 2002'
550_Maranello is offline  
post #18 of 54 Old 10-17-2013, 02:16 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,856
Fabio- With no synchromesh, you have to expect some "polishing" of the gears. Looks like those were well rounded off.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is offline  
post #19 of 54 Old 10-17-2013, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by 550_Maranello View Post
Terry,
Yes is an art rapidly becoming lost
Probably also I will lose in the future, I wanted to a F1 gearbox ... hahaha
212 - attached pictures of my today work, I have disassembled, clean and partially assembled the gearbox of 500 F, you note the consume of gears in comparison to the new.
Now look forward to your work photos ....
that's joke, my gearbox is very simple, your more complicate .... need more time, and more attention.
Good work !!!
Very impressive, Mario, what a difference between the 2 rings!

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
post #20 of 54 Old 10-18-2013, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
212Export's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Ferrari Life Posts: 3,996
This morning, I went with the gearbox to my mechanic to have a first quick look at it, by opening it up (without the differential box part today). As my time was limited to half an hour, I was unable to do good and clear photographs. Just this from a first view, the good side: The synchro's seem all in very good shape, no surface detoriation or drag/grind at the edges, the cogs/gearwheels as well, clean, proper nowhere indications of strong use or detoriation. The less good side: The 3rd gear counterpoint of the alignment forch, which is fixated with a screw, that screw was totally lose, probably the reason the third gear needed a soft/tender hand on the gearlever to engage the 3rd. gear (opposite to my first thought that this is a synchro ring problem) AND a little metal part, which looks like a small part of a tooth from a gearwheel was found with the magnetic stick at the bottom of the gearboxpan (one of the pictures shows it hanging at the magnetto stick, although unsharp in the foreground).

Again, overall before the taking apart Phase, my mechanic meant that the whole gear box looks very healthy. So maybe the first gear "jump-out" may proove to be an malaligned gearlever bar, and the 3rd gear unease a loose screw, however the reason for that lost tooth part Needs to be found as well as anyway all gaskets changed. More news as they reach me.
Sorry for the unsophisticated photoquality.
Attached Images
       

Present: 365 GTB/4, Scud
Past: 250 GTE, 250 PF (2), 275 GTBsn, 330 GTC, 456GT, 550, 360Stradale, 430Scuderia, F40, F50
212Export is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale