Spark Plug endless turning.... - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 15 Old 06-23-2013, 08:49 AM Thread Starter
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Spark Plug endless turning....

After many years of no problem today finally a serious problem: found out that one of the spark plug could not be fixed, turned endless with no force applied at all. Somebody must have forced it in the last couple of years. How I found out? Car suddenly runned only on 11 cylinders only (believe me I'm recognizing within a second if that is a fact) so unscrewed all plugs to look at their "pictures". When slowly screewing them softly in again, found out.

Now I guess the whole cylinder head needs to come apart: But here my question: How can/will that be done/fixed. I do want to have the best most serious solution as I want to keep "D" longterm and hopefully drive many more tens of thousands of miles.

This occurence makes me really sad. Is it really necessary to take the heads apart and if yes, would you guys consider a total engine restoration, because as the head away task will demand already time and money?!

I'm very happy for any knowledgeable reply! Thanks!

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Last edited by 212Export; 06-23-2013 at 10:25 AM.
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post #2 of 15 Old 06-23-2013, 10:23 AM
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212- The threads can be restored with a helicoil or something similar, or it could be welded and retapped. She has probably had several spark plug changes and all it takes is one guy to crossthread the plug and the threads are shot.

For the pros, can a helicoil be inserted without removing the head? Would need a heck of a vacuum afterwards.

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post #3 of 15 Old 06-23-2013, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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212- The threads can be restored with a helicoil or something similar, or it could be welded and retapped. She has probably had several spark plug changes and all it takes is one guy to crossthread the plug and the threads are shot.

For the pros, can a helicoil be inserted without removing the head? Would need a heck of a vacuum afterwards.
Thanks Terry, so helicoil option is a possibility, but heads off seems to be in the cards for SAFETY reasons !?
f that is the case, does time/money spend on this generally represents a big chunk compared to a total engine rebuild ? Sorry to ask but if the car is 4-8 weeks away and costs are 40% of it then I may consider all options just to have it perfect again. (although the car was running great just before this) ?!

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post #4 of 15 Old 06-23-2013, 11:02 AM
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212- If she was running great, seems like the thing to do, if you want to pull the head for safety, would be to inspect all the spark plug threads closely and see if all should be replaced, or just the one. Plus check the valves, guides, pistons, etc. If problems there, a general rebuild would be in order. Does not sound like you need a total rebuild now unless you find something else. Whatever aluminum bits from the threads went down there are likely long gone by now, possibly even blown past the spark plug on compression.

The alternative to Helicoil is Time-Sert, but we would need our pros' opinions on which is better for this application.

Taz
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Last edited by tazandjan; 06-23-2013 at 01:08 PM.
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post #5 of 15 Old 06-23-2013, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
212- If she was running great, seems like the thing to do, if you want to pull the head for safety, would be to inspect all the spark plug threads closely and see if all should be replaced, or just the one. Plus check the valves, guides, pistions, etc. If problems there, a general rebuild would be in order. Does not sound like you need a total rebuild now unless you find something else. Whatever aluminum bits from the threads went down there are likely long gone by now, possibly even blown past the spark plug on compression.

The alternative to Helicoil is Time-Sert, but we would need our pros' opinions on which is better for this application.
O k. Lets wait for the pros' opinion! Thanks Terry!

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post #6 of 15 Old 06-23-2013, 11:44 PM
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No need to remove the head. On a Daytona with the easy access of the spark plugs it is rather easy.

I am a big fan of the Helicoil repair. The trick to them is proper installation. If done correctly the fix will outlast us all.
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post #7 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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No need to remove the head. On a Daytona with the easy access of the spark plugs it is rather easy.

I am a big fan of the Helicoil repair. The trick to them is proper installation. If done correctly the fix will outlast us all.
Good News Brian, thanks ! A nearby mechanic which is a 9time european historic race car champion even in the Age of 60+ showed me the different possibilities with the helicoils. He's not doing my car but he shows me and shares knowledge from time to time when I visit him.
Today he showed me how a helicoil could be applied without taking the heads off on a race car. The care needs to be taken that no aluminium material falls into the burning room, however even that should not be a problem as aluminium normally disappears without damage to pistons or cylinders ?! However he said that heads of would be the case (as he does for his racing cars) if all plug holes/threads want to be strengthened with steel helicoils as the often changing plug situation over time in racing will damage any aluminium thread over time. For this the heads would better come off.

Brian, the car runned great before. Would you for now go for the outside simple and single helicoil application or would you rather vote for a heads of overall heliciol application (on all 12) and at the same time start to check for valves, seats and else ? Have driven the car about 50'k in the last 4 years, has about 75'k on odometer since restoration of engine in 1996 ?
Thanks !

Oh, one more question: what's your favorite plug type (make, heat) for the Daytona. My previous mechanic always used NGK BP7ES ? Thanks.

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post #8 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 07:56 AM
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212- That is great news. Kind of hoped it could be done that way, but Brian has done a bunch, so he knows.

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post #9 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 08:24 AM
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Good News Brian, thanks ! A nearby mechanic which is a 9time european historic race car champion even in the Age of 60+ showed me the different possibilities with the helicoils. He's not doing my car but he shows me and shares knowledge from time to time when I visit him.
Today he showed me how a helicoil could be applied without taking the heads off on a race car. The care needs to be taken that no aluminium material falls into the burning room, however even that should not be a problem as aluminium normally disappears without damage to pistons or cylinders ?! However he said that heads of would be the case (as he does for his racing cars) if all plug holes/threads want to be strengthened with steel helicoils as the often changing plug situation over time in racing will damage any aluminium thread over time. For this the heads would better come off.

Brian, the car runned great before. Would you for now go for the outside simple and single helicoil application or would you rather vote for a heads of overall heliciol application (on all 12) and at the same time start to check for valves, seats and else ? Have driven the car about 50'k in the last 4 years, has about 75'k on odometer since restoration of engine in 1996 ?
Thanks !

Oh, one more question: what's your favorite plug type (make, heat) for the Daytona. My previous mechanic always used NGK BP7ES ? Thanks.

BP7ES is the perfect choice.

If proper procedures are employed no aluminum chips will get in the motor.


I would limit my repair to the cylinder or cylinders with damaged threads. I also would not take the motor apart unless there were good reasons to do so. If the compression and leak down is good and there are no symptoms of serious problems leave it alone. Daytonas had very durable motors. More problems with them are induced by fixing a perfectly good car than just by normal use.
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post #10 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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BP7ES is the perfect choice.

If proper procedures are employed no aluminum chips will get in the motor.


I would limit my repair to the cylinder or cylinders with damaged threads. I also would not take the motor apart unless there were good reasons to do so. If the compression and leak down is good and there are no symptoms of serious problems leave it alone. Daytonas had very durable motors. More problems with them are induced by fixing a perfectly good car than just by normal use.
Brian, finally reached my ferrari mechanic....he said exactly what you did. "Just do what needs to be done, not more on a normally great running engine". Therefore car will be picked up with trailer for treating that single spark plug thread. 4 hours work roughly estimated if all goes well. Thanks for your comments and help. Very much appreciated. Also to you Terry, many thanks !

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post #11 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 11:50 AM
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Very glad to hear it is easily addressed.
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post #12 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 11:55 AM
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212- Glad it will be a simple, and quick, fix. Daytona engines are bulletproof. One of the great 60 deg V12 engines.

Taz
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post #13 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 12:26 PM
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I think Permatex or one of the other companies makes a product like "Fix/form a Thread" that make work for a while too? Might get you through the summer anyway? It certainly won't hurt the head or the motor any more than the damage that has already been done so there should be little harm in trying it for the summer?

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post #14 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by KKRace View Post
I think Permatex or one of the other companies makes a product like "Fix/form a Thread" that make work for a while too? Might get you through the summer anyway? It certainly won't hurt the head or the motor any more than the damage that has already been done so there should be little harm in trying it for the summer?

It's almost good enough to hold an emblem on the side but not quite.


It has to be the worst product they have ever made.
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post #15 of 15 Old 06-24-2013, 03:24 PM
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I would try JB Weld before Form a Thread. Permatex might be one of the most over valued products you can buy at AutoZone.

The Ford V10 and some 5.4L V8 engines have this problem commonly, enough that the tool trucks carry special tools for repairing the damaged threads. Heli Coil repairs work there as well, when done properly.


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