A Collection for the price of a 458 - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 21 Old 10-24-2012, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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A Collection for the price of a 458

Okay...let me start with the premise that you have to be a little bit "off" to prefer vintage cars over the new Ferraris. They have much less performance capabilities, lack many creature comforts, require more attention to mechanicals and often won't get you noticed on the Boulevard. Did I mention occasionally breaking down and giving you fits? You get the idea.

Now that you are properly prepared here is my idea on how to jump start a vintage [or nearly so] collection for the price of a over-carbon-fibred 458 with lots of options. Let's say the Italia lists out at $320,000. Here is great collection at relatively bargain current values:

1969 Ferrari 365 GT - "the Queen Mother". Only 800 built with a free-spinning Type 245 SOHC 4.4 Litre V-12 engine. Fantastic styling with a Superfast nose and grill, rounded fenders, open headlights and sweeping curves ending in a Kamm tail. Not a big fan of the triple tail lights but oh well. It's a 2+2 with room for 2 kids in the back or not-tall adults for the quick ride to dinner and then the Theatre. It is one classy dame. Target price: $100,000

1972 Ferrari 365 GTC/4 - better known as the "C4". Built by Pininfarina at the same time as its Daytona sibling the C4 is a fantastic driving car. With power steering for ease of manuvering combined with a DOHC 4.4 V-12 producing 320 hp. It is a strong pulling engine that has a machine like engine song combined with an exhaust howl like no other Ferrari. Drive the C/4 in a tunnel, put the windows down and drop it into 2nd with a speed shift at 5000 RPM. If this doesn't make you laugh you need to see a shrink. The styling is more modern with pop up headlights and no chrome to be found. Some don't like the "ubangi - lips" nose. But if you either get a dark color or paint the nose body color it becomes less noticeable. Although it has jump seats this is not a 2+2. Better use is to drop the seatbacks for storage to add to a pretty sizeable trunk. The C/4 is a great weekend getaway car to take you anywhere. With only 500 produced it will only appreciate over time while you have a blast.
Target Price: $110,000

1984-5 Ferrari 512 BBi - The "Boxer". Okay.......so it's not a vintage but it is definitely a classic Ferrari. With a flat V-12 the BB engine has stump-pulling torque in a pretty wide RPM range. And although not a light weight the mid engine design gives the car some excellent handling characteristics even if it is too heavy to be a regular track car. But get the BB out on the open roads and curves and you will have a ball! Although I prefer the carb version finding a well maintained one might be a little harder and more expensive than the injected. There were 929 carbies and 1017 [?] injected Boxers built. Target price $110,000

There you have it. For a 458 you could have an incredible collection of great Ferrari road cars including a GT 2+2, a Coupe and a Berlinetta.........but you have to be a genuine car guy to enter this fantastic world of vintage cars. [note: photos attibuted to FL website]
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Steve

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Current: SA, 330 GTC, Dino, BB, QP

Past: GTC, BB, QM, C/4, 355, 360, 550, 575, C/4

Last edited by Neopolitano; 10-24-2012 at 10:58 AM.
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post #2 of 21 Old 10-24-2012, 12:32 PM
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Great post! To take the devil's advocate thing a bit further, how about even more savings by swapping out the listed classics for the 90s bargains? Thus 456M replaces 365 gt 2+2; 550/575 replaces C4 and Testarossa/512 TR replaces BBi. Best of both worlds from the 90s models with classic styling and driving experiences allied to enough technology to make them faster and more reliable than the earlier cars.

Or perhaps a combination of the classics with the 90s to leave enough change to add a 308/355 the mix such as 456, 550, BBi and 308/355?

No right answer, it all boils down time to funds, parking spaces and state of mind. Great to have all these options though!

David

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post #3 of 21 Old 10-24-2012, 01:40 PM
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Steve and David- Great thoughts, especially on the QM and BB, both of which can only go up, and both of which look great. The C4 gives me pause when I look at where the distributors and carbs are located, but I guess that is usually your techs' problem. Plus the C4s were built by Pininfarina to a much higher standard than the DAytona or Dino. Yanking the engine on the BB or TR is pretty routine now, so not that big a deal except for money.

All I would need would be money and space, so I am 0 for 2.

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post #4 of 21 Old 10-24-2012, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitano View Post
They have much less performance capabilities, lack many creature comforts, require more attention to mechanicals and often won't get you noticed on the Boulevard. Did I mention occasionally breaking down and giving you fits?
Hey, I resemble that remark!

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post #5 of 21 Old 10-24-2012, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vitalone View Post
Great post! To take the devil's advocate thing a bit further, how about even more savings by swapping out the listed classics for the 90s bargains? Thus 456M replaces 365 gt 2+2; 550/575 replaces C4 and Testarossa/512 TR replaces BBi. Best of both worlds from the 90s models with classic styling and driving experiences allied to enough technology to make them faster and more reliable than the earlier cars.

Or perhaps a combination of the classics with the 90s to leave enough change to add a 308/355 the mix such as 456, 550, BBi and 308/355?

No right answer, it all boils down time to funds, parking spaces and state of mind. Great to have all these options though!
David...I have to admit to succumbing to the ease of having a more modern car. In my mix of cars is an SA. Real a/c [for Florida], power all around and an easy driver. As you said there is not a "one size fits all" collection.

Steve

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Current: SA, 330 GTC, Dino, BB, QP

Past: GTC, BB, QM, C/4, 355, 360, 550, 575, C/4
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post #6 of 21 Old 10-24-2012, 09:48 PM
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Over-carbon-fibred 458? Steve, you hurt me....

I do believe your prices are pretty darn optimistic. Certainly you cannot find any of those cars in a decent condition for those prices in Europe. And one other thing to consider: a 458 has 7 years free maintenance.

What I would not give to have 7 years free maintenance on any of my classics....

But your point is taken - I do agree that too many people disregard the vintage Ferrari and there are some real beauties to be found for reasonable prices, with no depreciation to be taken into account, and rather appreciation to be enjoyed (at least for the moment).

It is no coincidence that my second Ferrari was a 365BB and my third a 330GTC. But my 458 is nonetheless very special, and the joy of specifying your own Ferrari at the factory in Maranello should not be underestimated.


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post #7 of 21 Old 10-24-2012, 09:49 PM
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Really great post and I do have a soft spot for both the Queen Mother and Boxer.

On the flip side, you can buy a 550 Barchetta, 16M, and F355 Spider and 360 Spider for the price of a 275 GTS.
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post #8 of 21 Old 10-25-2012, 01:34 AM
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It is a good point that there are only a couple of classic Ferraris that are much cheaper than a 458. The 330GTC needs to be considered entry level in the vintage Ferrari V12 coupe world, but they have now broken the $500k barrier (at least once).


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post #9 of 21 Old 10-25-2012, 03:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JazzyO View Post
Over-carbon-fibred 458? Steve, you hurt me....

I do believe your prices are pretty darn optimistic. Certainly you cannot find any of those cars in a decent condition for those prices in Europe. And one other thing to consider: a 458 has 7 years free maintenance.

What I would not give to have 7 years free maintenance on any of my classics....

But your point is taken - I do agree that too many people disregard the vintage Ferrari and there are some real beauties to be found for reasonable prices, with no depreciation to be taken into account, and rather appreciation to be enjoyed (at least for the moment).

It is no coincidence that my second Ferrari was a 365BB and my third a 330GTC. But my 458 is nonetheless very special, and the joy of specifying your own Ferrari at the factory in Maranello should not be underestimated.


Onno
As previously stated by David there is no right answer. There are so many choices out there that I get dizzy thinking about them. As far as pricing.......well maybe I am an optimist. I do see a few really nice BBi's out there [in the US] for a song. With some search it could be less than my target. The QM might take longer to find the right car. I'll bet BryanAp knows where one is C/4s occasionally pop up. Finding the right one is key.

Certainly maintenance efforts and expenses will be a not-small issue [optimist speak]. I did leave this out of my post. But that is where vintage caretakers being a different "cut" than other enthusiasts is a requirement. As is a cooperative or tolerant [mine] spouse. It's part of the ownership experience. Hanging out in the garage futzing around with the cars is good therapy and helps keep these beauties healthy too.

And Onno......don't think I don't love the 458. I drove one with a factory test driver around Maranello, sat with the atelier, and ordered a black/tan car. But when it was delivered to the dealer I chose not to bring it home. I subsequently acquired the Carobu BB. In my pretzel logic I decided to just primarily focus on the older Ferraris. Maybe one day the 458 will be sitting in my garage. Just not for now.

Steve

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Current: SA, 330 GTC, Dino, BB, QP

Past: GTC, BB, QM, C/4, 355, 360, 550, 575, C/4
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post #10 of 21 Old 10-25-2012, 04:53 AM
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No worries Steve, was just pretending to be hurt, I respect you and your opinions very highly. Just thought I'd play devil's advocate for a bit. Basically, I go back and forth between modern and classic and it is because I appreciate their individual merits that I have more Ferraris than I know what to do with and still have a hard time letting any of them go.... This is also what makes this manufacturer so special, in my opinion.


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post #11 of 21 Old 10-25-2012, 05:31 AM
 
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It's part of the ownership experience. Hanging out in the garage futzing around with the cars is good therapy and helps keep these beauties healthy too.
And it's part of another way of passion as well. This tells everything about why I would love to do this in the future if I succeed with my goals.

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post #12 of 21 Old 10-26-2012, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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I did leave out the more modern cars. My thinking was to acquire a trio of vintage Ferraris for the price of one new 458. Three classic cars that should not depreciate vs one new car that will lose value over the next decade. One new 8 cylinder car for 3 - V-12s that epitomize what Enzo believed in. A collection that would make your heart beat faster when you walk into your garage and make your heart race when you got them out on the open road. A modest collection that would make any Ferraristi proud.

I started my modest collection in 2004 w/ a 330 GTC. Later I added a Dino and a BB. Although the BB is still lagging in appreciation it's just a matter of time. From a value standpoint the GTC has turned out to be a good choice as has the Dino. But like my wife's jewelry once I have a car that I love they stay with me until I can't push the clutch pedal.

The purpose of my thread was to try to use some reasoning to generate passion in what I see are absolutely great values that are being offered in the Ferrari marketplace. These are all cars that Enzo built. Over time they will not only bring their caretakers great pleasure but they will also exhibit healthy appreciation over the long haul.

Steve

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Past: GTC, BB, QM, C/4, 355, 360, 550, 575, C/4
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post #13 of 21 Old 10-27-2012, 07:13 AM
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If one was to take a similar approach today to "young" classics, what would buy assuming a budget of $150-200k?

3 that come to mind are a 550, F355 Spider, and a 328 GTB.
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post #14 of 21 Old 10-27-2012, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
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If one was to take a similar approach today to "young" classics, what would buy assuming a budget of $150-200k?

3 that come to mind are a 550, F355 Spider, and a 328 GTB.
A 550 for sure would be on the list. A V12 GT for a bargain. I like the 355 idea, but I prefer the coupe. What about the somewhat rare 355 GTS? For an optional open top an '89 328 GTS would be fantastic.

How about this? FML asking prices used......

1989 328 GTS..$ 51000.......alternate a 89 328 GTB @ 52000
1998 355 GTS.....59000.......alternate a 355 Berlinetta @ 52000....or 355 Spyder @ 63000
2001 550 M..........76000

in your budget range. and all more modern in reliability.

Steve

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post #15 of 21 Old 10-27-2012, 12:42 PM
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A lovely set. Very different cars, offering classic, open top, GT and very sportive motoring. I could very happily live with those three.

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post #16 of 21 Old 10-28-2012, 02:45 AM
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A 550 for sure would be on the list. A V12 GT for a bargain. I like the 355 idea, but I prefer the coupe. What about the somewhat rare 355 GTS? For an optional open top an '89 328 GTS would be fantastic.

How about this? FML asking prices used......

1989 328 GTS..$ 51000.......alternate a 89 328 GTB @ 52000
1998 355 GTS.....59000.......alternate a 355 Berlinetta @ 52000....or 355 Spyder @ 63000
2001 550 M..........76000

in your budget range. and all more modern in reliability.
IMHO, all are well on there way to being long term classics. Agree on the 550 but would still opt for a F355 Spider (manual), I do think it is one of Ferraris nicest designs, especially as a spider. The GTS is a bit flexi (i owned one a few years ago) . On the 328, based on my experience with the 308, would go the other way and get the much rarer GTB.
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post #17 of 21 Old 10-28-2012, 09:47 AM
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Nice observation on the F355 spider. Don't think about that car too often, you don't see that many either. Can't remember the last time I saw one, actually. Wouldn't prefer it over a 550 but TOGETHER with a 550, that would be lovely!

But we have gone off the path set upon by Steve - if vintage is the way and you want as much bang for buck as is possible, then his set is perfect.


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post #18 of 21 Old 10-28-2012, 02:43 PM
 
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And what about this one?

Vintage - QM 365 GT

Classic - Testarossa

Modern (relatively) & DD - 550 MM

Still below 300k ($) for other costs.

"Seize the Day, putting as little trust as possible in the future" - Horace, Carpe Diem
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post #19 of 21 Old 11-28-2012, 12:31 AM
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Not a bad set at all, Atilla.

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post #20 of 21 Old 11-28-2012, 12:57 AM
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Great thread. It really embodies why we own the cars that we do.

I hear it all the time - "why don't you swap all three of your cars for a nice new one?"

The 308, 930 and Diablo combined cost me less the equivalent of a new Aston Vantage or Maserati Gran Coupe (or irrelevantly a new SL500). For me, the variety that I experience from day to day is simply a dream. Sure, I don't have a modern car that is properly comfortable but I certainly savour each and every kilometer of driving.

But after all it's horses for course and I respect people who want the peace of mind and mod-cons of a new car.

Kind regards

Mike

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