Mechanical pump on the 330 GTC - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 21 Old 04-22-2012, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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Mechanical pump on the 330 GTC

The GTC as well as other vintage Ferrari V-12s have a mechaical fuel pump that sits low front left on the engine. The pump utilizes a rocker arm that is actuated by a "hammer" that is run off the engine. For normal starting Ferrari added an electric fuel pump that fills the lines for startup. Once running the mechanical fuel pump should be sufficient to take over and the "theory" is that you can then shut off the electric pump. While cool it will run the engine. However when things heat up a bit the mechanical pump is insufficient on its own and must have additional pressure that the electric pump provides.

As part of the engine rebuild I had the mechanical pump refurbished. Basically this is a rubber and gasket set I believe. However even after the rebuild when hot the mechanical is not enough. Of course the easy answer is to leave on the electric pump. I have always done this and not had any problems......till last Friday when the electric pump suddenly stopped while exiting the interstate. I confirmed the pump was getting electric as I checked the fuses and the switch on the console dashboard. Fortunately when whacked with the lead knockoff hammer the pump kicked in and off we went. I plan on pulling the electric pump and having the motor checked. My guess is that the electric motor somehow developed a "dead spot" and brushes will need replacing.

My longwinded question........Is there any way to improve the mechanical pump efficiency when the engine is warm/hot? I have this idea that the fiber spacer between the pump and the engine might be slightly expanding when the engine gets hot. Maybe it could be shaved slightly to have the "hammer" provide a bit more throw into the rocker. But be forewarned........my ideas often are more dangerous than logical.

Any experts out there on these meager pumps?:Or is it time to go to NAPA and get a good ole merican electric pump and forget the mechanical and replace the electrical original?

Steve

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post #2 of 21 Old 04-22-2012, 01:45 PM
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The mechanical pumps used rubber parts not compatible with modern reformulated fuel and the one way valves in them go bad. Also the push rods and cams can wear and lower pump output. I would dismount the pump and determine the correct stroke and protrusion of the push rod. A small change in either can cause pressure problems. Do not guess, get specific data. Then focus on the pump itself.

I no longer work on the vintage cars but I suspect many of the guys that supply parts for them can help. I know the last set of parts I got was from Pat Ottis in Berkeley. He doesn't really sell parts but he will know who to get them from. You might get in touch with Parker Hall at Kilimanjaro designs and Geoff Ohland at Partsource as well.


If you still have the old electric pump with the points, get rid of it. They were never very relaible.

Last edited by Brian; 04-22-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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post #3 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 02:04 AM
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The mechanical pumps used rubber parts not compatible with modern reformulated fuel and the one way valves in them go bad.
Very interesting. I wonder what my mechanical pump's condition is, and which way it is going. It still has no problem supplying fuel, unless in a traffic jam stationary for a long time. No idea if it was ever upgraded or not.


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post #4 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 07:38 AM
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Very interesting. I wonder what my mechanical pump's condition is, and which way it is going. It still has no problem supplying fuel, unless in a traffic jam stationary for a long time. No idea if it was ever upgraded or not.


Onno


I have no idea what passes for gasoline where you are so I could not begin to comment. I will say though that with a good, correctly operating mechanical pump it should be able to do the job except for running on very hot days and hot starts, but only just able.

Through the various 365 models Ferrari just eliminated the mechanical pumps altogether. For good reason.


If I had any of those cars I would have a good modern electric pump running full time regulated down to the correct pressure and just have the mechanical in place for looks.
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post #5 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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I have no idea what passes for gasoline where you are so I could not begin to comment. I will say though that with a good, correctly operating mechanical pump it should be able to do the job except for running on very hot days and hot starts, but only just able.

Through the various 365 models Ferrari just eliminated the mechanical pumps altogether. For good reason.


If I had any of those cars I would have a good modern electric pump running full time regulated down to the correct pressure and just have the mechanical in place for looks.
Down here in Florida very hot days are typical. My drive to Orlando was on an upper 80s somewhat humid afternoon. The mechanical is insufficient in those conditions.

What would be a proper pressure........4 psi? Do you have any recommendation on electric pump manufacturer? The GTC is a driver so function over form is the order.

Steve

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post #6 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
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I have no idea what passes for gasoline where you are so I could not begin to comment. I will say though that with a good, correctly operating mechanical pump it should be able to do the job except for running on very hot days and hot starts, but only just able.

Through the various 365 models Ferrari just eliminated the mechanical pumps altogether. For good reason.


If I had any of those cars I would have a good modern electric pump running full time regulated down to the correct pressure and just have the mechanical in place for looks.
Brian, the ever only issue I had with "D" was a collapsing fuel pump 35'000 km's/3 years ago (as Onno and Boxer will recall before start to Fled 2). After the pump was changed against a FACET electronic fuel pump, no problems anymore from that side. I do not remember what type of fuel pump was installed before but is a electronic fuel pump original with a Daytona ?
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post #7 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Neopolitano View Post
Down here in Florida very hot days are typical. My drive to Orlando was on an upper 80s somewhat humid afternoon. The mechanical is insufficient in those conditions.

What would be a proper pressure........4 psi? Do you have any recommendation on electric pump manufacturer? The GTC is a driver so function over form is the order.


I no longer work on vintage cars and haven't for years so don't know what is available. It needs to be regulated to 4 lbs or less and you do not want a pump that makes 30 lbs and regulate it down. Most of what I see designed for imports are really for smaller motors. These look like they might be OK. I would call both Carter and Holley directly and ask them if it will work for you. They will be the best source of info.


Carter GP4070 - Carter Universal Rotary Vane Electric Fuel Pumps - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Holley 12-801-1 - Holley Red Electric Fuel Pumps - Overview - SummitRacing.com
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post #8 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 08:29 AM
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Brian, the ever only issue I had with "D" was a collapsing fuel pump 35'000 km's/3 years ago (as Onno and Boxer will recall before start to Fled 2). After the pump was changed against a FACET electronic fuel pump, no problems anymore from that side. I do not remember what type of fuel pump was installed before but is a electronic fuel pump original with a Daytona ?


Facets were original and the Daytona had 2 of them because they were never designed for a motor that large. I do not believe modern Facets are as good as they once were and I don't think replumbing a 330 to take 2 pumps in parallel when we could have one good one is a great idea. I didn't think that fuel system was really smart in 1968 and it hasn't gotten better since. Also the Facets are noisy and need to be rubber mounted because they vibrate. Not so noticeable in a Daytona but it is pretty Victorian all in all. If he is going to make a modification in the name of better reliability and hide it from view might just as well take advantage of modern technology.


Don't get me wrong. Daytona is a really great car but the fuel system was one of those areas where they used the parts their cousin Guido had for sale rather than get off their butts and see what the rest of the world was up to.

Last edited by Brian; 04-23-2012 at 08:36 AM.
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post #9 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 08:48 AM
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Summit racing also makes their own brand of electric fuel pumps. I have used them in carb big v8's and they work great. Nice price as well.
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post #10 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice Brian. I will put in a reliable modern electric fuel pump. As you mentioned Holley has fuel pumps that would fit the requirements. The Summit Racing site [thank you Jay] shows a Holley that pumps 7 psi max. In discussion w/ my shop we agreed that 4-6 psi is the range we want to be in. And I think 6 psi would be best since these ole V-12s get hot and we want to overcome the dreaded vapor lock.

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post #11 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
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Facets were original and the Daytona had 2 of them because they were never designed for a motor that large. I do not believe modern Facets are as good as they once were and I don't think replumbing a 330 to take 2 pumps in parallel when we could have one good one is a great idea. I didn't think that fuel system was really smart in 1968 and it hasn't gotten better since. Also the Facets are noisy and need to be rubber mounted because they vibrate. Not so noticeable in a Daytona but it is pretty Victorian all in all. If he is going to make a modification in the name of better reliability and hide it from view might just as well take advantage of modern technology.


Don't get me wrong. Daytona is a really great car but the fuel system was one of those areas where they used the parts their cousin Guido had for sale rather than get off their butts and see what the rest of the world was up to.
Understood, thanks Brian. What would be your choice of replacement for "D" today once the facet version breaks down (or better before) ? Or is it the same one you proposed for the 330 GTC from before ?
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post #12 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 01:32 PM
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Thanks for the advice Brian. I will put in a reliable modern electric fuel pump. As you mentioned Holley has fuel pumps that would fit the requirements. The Summit Racing site [thank you Jay] shows a Holley that pumps 7 psi max. In discussion w/ my shop we agreed that 4-6 psi is the range we want to be in. And I think 6 psi would be best since these ole V-12s get hot and we want to overcome the dreaded vapor lock.


Just be sure that at idle fuel does not drip. Weber fuel pressure is a little low because it is easy to overcome the pressure on the float valve with too much pressure.
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post #13 of 21 Old 04-23-2012, 01:34 PM
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Understood, thanks Brian. What would be your choice of replacement for "D" today once the facet version breaks down (or better before) ? Or is it the same one you proposed for the 330 GTC from before ?

In your case I would retain every part required to return to stock but otherwise yes. A pump arrangement as we described for the 330.
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post #14 of 21 Old 05-04-2012, 08:39 PM
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For the Dino the recommended electric fuel pump is the Facet 480532 red top FSE, 6.5 - 7.0 psi, 12V neg.
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post #15 of 21 Old 05-05-2012, 03:36 PM
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For the Dino the recommended electric fuel pump is the Facet 480532 red top FSE, 6.5 - 7.0 psi, 12V neg.


Noisy and has all the reliability of a 1960 Italian pump
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post #16 of 21 Old 08-22-2012, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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update on fuel pump replacement

Brian and all.........I replaced the electric fuel pump in the GTC with a Holley. Right after install I drove 800 miles from FL to NC in 95+ degree hot humid weather w/ some stop and go traffic encountered. I even pulled out of the heavy traffic to refuel w/ engine water temp reading 110. This is the perfect scenario for failure of the original dual-fuel pump system in the car. After refueling the temp gauge was still showing 110....vapor lock conditions. Restart was fast and without issue.

That's the good news.........but something is lost without hearing the click-click-click in filling the system on startup. It's replaced with the hum of an efficient pump doing what it's designed to do. But I will put up with the lost characteristic in return for staying on the road.

Steve

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post #17 of 21 Old 08-22-2012, 06:28 PM
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Steve- I agree. That click, click, click, as you know, is caused by a set of points opening and closing, and there are better ways to do it now. If you like, we can probably rig a small speaker and digital recorder to duplicate the clicking sound. Just kidding.

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post #18 of 21 Old 08-23-2012, 01:32 AM
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Well done, Steve !

I suppose more reliability is the better option than the fear factor ? Nevertheless, the unavoidable, slight change in personality ?

Well, my Dino is still ticking, for now.

w/ smiles

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post #19 of 21 Old 08-23-2012, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitano View Post
Brian and all.........I replaced the electric fuel pump in the GTC with a Holley. Right after install I drove 800 miles from FL to NC in 95+ degree hot humid weather w/ some stop and go traffic encountered. I even pulled out of the heavy traffic to refuel w/ engine water temp reading 110. This is the perfect scenario for failure of the original dual-fuel pump system in the car. After refueling the temp gauge was still showing 110....vapor lock conditions. Restart was fast and without issue.

That's the good news.........but something is lost without hearing the click-click-click in filling the system on startup. It's replaced with the hum of an efficient pump doing what it's designed to do. But I will put up with the lost characteristic in return for staying on the road.
Hey glad to hear it worked out for you and also that you went with the Holley. It seems many Ferrari owners would rather put junk on their car because it's "vintage, period correct, blah blah" when it is something as simple as a fuel pump. If people would get over their brand/originality loyalty on these kinds of parts that don't matter, there would be a lot of better running Ferraris out there. Congrats on making it more reliable.
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post #20 of 21 Old 08-24-2012, 07:32 AM Thread Starter
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Hey glad to hear it worked out for you and also that you went with the Holley. It seems many Ferrari owners would rather put junk on their car because it's "vintage, period correct, blah blah" when it is something as simple as a fuel pump. If people would get over their brand/originality loyalty on these kinds of parts that don't matter, there would be a lot of better running Ferraris out there. Congrats on making it more reliable.
Jay...thanks to your reference to Summit Racing and Brian's recommendations including correct pressure range my mechanic was able to acquire the right pump for the job. I really do appreciate the help!!

Steve

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