Daytona 14273 - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
 
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Daytona 14273

Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona #14273 was ordered by Maranello Concessionaires in October 1970 for John Cussins who was a hill climb racing driver and once owned the ex Graham Hill 4WD BRM. The car was collected by Mr Cussins and his wife from the factory in May 1970, registered JRC 40 and driven to the Monaco Grand Prix. The car was finished in Argento Auteuil 106-E-1 with black leather, charcoal grey carpets and air conditioning. The original log book shows that the car was sold in 1972 to a property company in London then in 1974 to a bank. After this the car met with a terrible accident and recovery was facilitated by wrapping huge chains around the body and dragging it up a muddy slope. Clearly this did substantial damage to the panelwork and added to the chassis damage incurred in the original accident. The wreck was then sold on, someone hacked the roof off and eventually in 1979 the car was purchased by Chris Lawrence who intended to restore it as a spyder. The photo below shows the car as Chris received it with not a useable panel in sight.

Chris Lawrence was the much revered and well known Maserati and Ferrari SWB and GTO replica builder. I got to know Chris in the year 2000 when I asked him to produce a correct GTO chassis and body for me and we became friends, even going on holiday together. He knew that I would like to have a Daytona for my wife and I to enjoy in our retirement but I could not afford a complete one, so we came to a gentleman’s agreement that when he wanted to sell his Daytona, I would be his first port of call. In the intervening period, Chris had completely dismantled the wreck and stored all the parts in various barns and workshops on his property, whilst throwing away the irrepairable body parts. Subsequently, early in 2006 Chris was diagnosed with Melanoma Cancer and he asked me if I still wanted to buy the Daytona, which I did. We managed to complete the deal and load two trailers full of parts that I had not seen, boxes, broken suspension, an engine that was stuck fast and a bent chassis, just days before he died. When I eventually surveyed my purchase, my heart sank; the engine had two holes in the sump where the front suspension pick up securing nuts had punched through the cast aluminium, the chassis had sustained damage to the driver’s side front suspension area and oval tube. However, Chris had managed to purchase what he told me was a genuine Scaglietti nearly complete front body clip and this I valued very highly. I was also able to purchase fairly soon after, an entire rear body clip and roof from Maranello Concessionaires long with various missing trim panels needed to return the car to a Berlinetta that we could enjoy, driving through Continental Europe. So all I needed was someone to fix the chassis for me. In 2007, I did try a local engineer, who had a basic jig, who did his best to straighten the chassis but it eventually dawned on me that we really needed a Ferrari expert. I have a strong scientific background and an interest in automotive engineering, however my welding and bodywork abilities are those of an amateur. I enjoy paint spraying, engine building, assembly and finishing the cars off to a high standard but I do need the correct body and chassis to work from. Originality and correct original construction of a given car is important to me. So in 2007, I started looking for a genuine chassis engineer with Ferrari experience and all the right equipment to return this chassis and body to a point where I could begin the laborious but rewarding process of preparation for painting.
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post #2 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 01:48 PM
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Car looks pretty sad.
I believe that if you bring it back to life it will be epic!.

I wish you success and keep the pics rolling
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post #3 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 02:07 PM
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Perfect, now you have all the space you need for more info on the restoration.

Taz
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Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

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post #4 of 25 Old 01-23-2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1exander View Post
I wish you success and keep the pics rolling
+1.

what stage are you at now? Or is 14273 in the condition as per your pic?

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post #5 of 25 Old 01-24-2012, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
 
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Daytona #14273

Here are a few pictures of the engine, the first one being the engine lying forlornly in Chris Lawrence’s workshop just before I bought the 26,000 mile car. Chris told me that the engine was stuck through nearly 40 years lack of use – it had not even been turned over in all that time but had just been left lying around. I trusted Chris.The hole in the left hand side of the sump can be seen close behind the piece of sticky paper in the foreground and there is another one in the corresponding position on the other side. The next photo shows the engine in my cradle just before I started stripping it, because I was told by someone who claims to be an expert in Ferrari’s that my engine was seized solid and of little value. How he could ascertain this without looking inside the engine, I don’t know. We shall see!

Off came the carbs, the vac pump pulley ring nut gave me a few problems until I made my own socket and the heads gave up the fight after a good struggle. I was quite surprised at the amount of corrosion product powder in the water ways, they were completely blocked and when I removed the heads, powder just spilled into the bores. I guess that the car must have stood for a long time with water in it and probably the antifreeze and anti-corrosion effectiveness had long disappeared. What surprised me even more was that the condition of the important engine components can only be described as nearly new: The main bearings were not yet run in and still shiny silver, the big ends were perfect with an even, matt grey appearance and the pistons were new. They were stuck, but one by one they came out of their bores and are now soaking in cleaning solvent. This engine has not seized, it has become stuck as the late Chris Lawrence said. There’s a moral here to do with so-called Ferrari “experts”.
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post #6 of 25 Old 01-24-2012, 02:29 PM
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Great news. Ferrari engines are amazingly tough, unlike things like window winding mechanisms, about which they cared little in the late 60s and early 70s. The big pieces like the engine were beautifully engineered, and that is the important thing.

A little refreshing and a little welding, and you should be in good shape on the engine. Amazing that antifreeze would turn into some sort of powder. In most late model Ferraris, though, there is no change interval specified for changing coolant. As picky as they are on other things, you would think that would have bubbled to the top eventually.

Taz
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post #7 of 25 Old 01-24-2012, 03:58 PM
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Wow: That is some work waiting to happen: Look fwd to this thread....so many to keep track of now, but worth every min.

Oh, ya' welcome to the Ferrari Life.

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post #8 of 25 Old 02-05-2012, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
 
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Chassis repair

Can I ask the UK forum members a question? Firstly, I apologise for the delay in posting some more but as you will realise, I have had some problems. My question is: If you took a Ferrari chassis to a recognised repairer of Ferrari chassis and it came back badly repaired, would you expect the repairer to have defective workmanship insurance cover. My repairer states that he does not have such cover.
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post #9 of 25 Old 07-05-2012, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
 
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Daytona #14273

As you may have guessed by now, I have had some problems with the repairs to my Daytona body/chassis. I took my chassis and new body parts to an internationally known Ferrari specialist here in the UK and two years later I got back something that, although it basically looks like a Daytona, in my opinion it has been completely hacked about and messed up. Original, good areas of the body/chassis have been completely destroyed and new (wrong) items substituted for perfectly good original parts, for example the front cockpit cross-member, which is now the wrong size profile. Having chopped up my original Scaglietti front clip, they mounted the indicators at the wrong angle. Parts such as fittings and brackets have been removed/lost and neither returned to me nor remade. Worst of all, the main oval tubes have been replaced with incorrect profile tubing which Ferrari, Italy have now confirmed is also made of a cheaper and wrong steel alloy.

The photos below show the "new" oval tubes, with flats, with a butt weld just behind the engine mounts where all 352bhp are transferred into the chassis. Also the new bonnet, for which I supplied an oversize new frame and new skin and both of which have been cut far too short, making them both utterly useless. You can also see the odd indicator aperture position which now points the indicators at the ground, unlike any other Daytona in the world! The fourth photo shows the massive thickness of filler paste which surrounds my new windscreen aperture. It is difficult to understand how this much adjustment (bodging) was necessary when new panels were assembled in a computerised jig after apparently scanning another supposedly known good car.



I was thinking that the only way out of this mess was to part out the car and sell all the parts off. BUT IT IS A GENUINE FERRARI. The previous owner had plans to reinstate the car as a cut Spyder but we don’t want to do that; My wife and I had our hearts set on restoring this car as a genuine Daytona Berlinetta to use on touring holidays in our retirement. I don't know how ANYONE, never mind such a well known “specialist”, can treat a Ferrari and their customer in this way and, to me, it is inexcusable that they charged £30,000 + materials to someone who was not a Daytona expert (but is now!), upfront for such shoddy work. The car will be on display at the National Meet & Concours event on Sunday 8th July.
Chris
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post #10 of 25 Old 07-05-2012, 12:19 PM
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Sorry they messed up the job. Daytonas are very well documented, so not much excuse for that. Incidentally, the only photo that made it through to me was the one of the bonnet.

Taz
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Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
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post #11 of 25 Old 07-05-2012, 12:25 PM
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I would cringe at the thoughts of what they did to your car !

Maybe you can get hold of Grant here in our FL for suggestions since he has undertaken his Daytona for extensive restoration which is nearing the end with gorgeous results. Good luck with your endeavor.

w/ smiles
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post #12 of 25 Old 07-05-2012, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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Sorry, I messed up the upload. Here are the first four photos:
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post #13 of 25 Old 07-05-2012, 01:26 PM
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I am no expert when it comes to restoration quality, yet I can still get a sense that what is done properly with care or not. Your shop that calls themselves "expert" should realize that they do not even come close. Enough of criticizing incompetents. Cannot you refuse to pay them ?

When someone in my profession use the title specialist, that requires extra training and is held responsible for a much higher standard of care. Your shop claims to be a specialist, therefore they cannot get away with this kind of work. Sad to see.

w/ smiles
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post #14 of 25 Old 07-05-2012, 06:27 PM
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Jimmy- Refuse to pay and they slap a mechanic's lien on the car.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
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post #15 of 25 Old 07-05-2012, 10:50 PM
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A few questions:

- do you have possession of the Daytona now?

- have you paid the restorer in full yet?

- where did the recommendation that this shop was a "Daytona Expert" come from?
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post #16 of 25 Old 07-06-2012, 05:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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A few questions:

- do you have possession of the Daytona now?

- have you paid the restorer in full yet?

- where did the recommendation that this shop was a "Daytona Expert" come from?

Thanks for all the advice and comments. Yes I have the car now and it is going to the National Meet on Sunday as a car in restoration. Hopefully there will be many more appearances for it in the future, showing major improvements from this lowest of low points.

The repairer was paid up front in stage payments and cash for the materials and parts. Clearly they would not release the car until full payment was received, but that's not unusual.

I did my own research, got hooked by the repairer's quality advertising and visited to check their facilities. I felt these were impressive and knowing the quality and value of other cars which had passed through their hands, decided that they would do a good job for me. Their website also impressed, showing many projects which they had been involved in and they also claimed to be Ferrari experts, however they have recently removed this claim from their homepage.

I used the phrase "Daytona expert" in reference to myself being hoodwinked :

"......... inexcusable that they charged £30,000 + materials to someone who was not a Daytona expert (but is now!)............"

I was also very ill during this period and underwent 4 different courses of Chemotherapy. Over the two years, visits to see my car were few and I had to completely trust the company doing the repairs as I didn't know too much about what they were doing. I do now and I wish I had been able to watch them very carefully and ask more questions. When I did eventually ask questions about the massive (I thought unecessary) amount of work they were doing to the front of my car, I was told to "leave it to the experts".

Here is a photo of the front of my car during some of this work. You can see the triangular cross-braces and bumper support tubes from the original car which were completely undamaged. Shortly before getting the car back, these were just cut off and seemingly thrown away. The car has no cross-bracing at all, now. They are already chopping up the lovely, undamaged Scaglietti front clip.
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post #17 of 25 Old 07-06-2012, 06:06 AM
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Have you questioned the shop about all this? What sort of responses and logic are they trying to use?

I am not trying to defend them, just experience says that sometimes resolution (at least partial) might be possible with calm discussions.

Jeff
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post #18 of 25 Old 07-06-2012, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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Have you questioned the shop about all this? What sort of responses and logic are they trying to use?

I am not trying to defend them, just experience says that sometimes resolution (at least partial) might be possible with calm discussions.

Jeff
Yes, they were very rude and said that they had done me a favour by doing a cheap job! I didn't ask for a cheap job, I asked for a quotation and paid the full stage payments when asked. Clearly they made mistakes, didn't go back and correct them then, trying to cut corners, just compounded the errors. The car will need a total rebuild starting with new oval tubes in Italy.
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post #19 of 25 Old 07-06-2012, 10:29 AM
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From the last photo the car has come a long way. Since you are in the UK, connect with Boxer via PM and I'm sure he can point you to a few shops. I recall he had is Daytona repainted and worked on a few years back before FLED2.
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post #20 of 25 Old 07-06-2012, 12:13 PM
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Best person to talk to about this situation would be Wheels1. He is just finishing a full restoration on his Daytona.

http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/pr...n-rebuild.html
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