Dinosaur needs help - Page 2 - Ferrari Life
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post #21 of 44 Old 12-19-2009, 05:35 AM
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The idea of driving the Swiss Alps is certainly appealing but I am afraid that it will not be. Regarding Cavallino articles, please see the cover and 14 page story in issue #171.

Best regards,

Robert
Dear Robert

While driving the 500 Mondial, you sit "next" to the gear box. Hans Tanner the well known Ferrari enthusiast described once the unbelevable "shreeking" of that gearbox while driving. I once had the chance to co-drive in a 750 Monza and actually the "noise" from the gearbox was louder the the engine. Is this the same on your Mondial ?
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post #22 of 44 Old 12-19-2009, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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relocate this thread

Andrew,

I plan on answering some of the recent questions but I suspect that this thread is now on the wrong segment of your forum since my original question to the Modern Model guys has been answered. Can you move the thread to the 212, 250, 275 section under "Ferrari Owners" ?

While you are at it, how about adding 500 to the heading 212, 250, 275?

Thanks,

Robert
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post #23 of 44 Old 12-20-2009, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Noisy transaxle

Dear 212Export,

There is absolutely no doubt that the transaxle noise is quite loud and the pitch of the whine is higher than the scream of the exhaust which starts low and guttural and rises in timbre with the rpms. It is not a bearing sound as the all the bearings are new. I strongly suspect it has to do with the transaxle design. At the rear end of the third motion (output) shaft of the transmission part of the transaxle there is a hypoid bevel gear which engages with another similarly cut gear on a cross shaft which also carries a spur cut gear which in turn drives the crown wheel or differential carrier gear. I believe this combination of gears is what leads to the whine or noise. It is also possible that the noise emanates from the two Hookes type universal joints within the differential or from the act of the sliding "chiclets" in the ZF type limited slip differential, however I lean towards the gears as being the source of the noise.

The attached shows a schematic of the arrangement I just described and the next photo is of the actual gears. This transaxle design was for the race cars and provides twenty one different possible final drive ratios from which to select the proper one for a given track. The last photo is of the various components of the differential part of the transaxle.

Best regards,

Robert
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post #24 of 44 Old 12-20-2009, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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The finished assembly looks like this.

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Robert
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post #25 of 44 Old 12-20-2009, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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This photo is the transaxle installed. Once the seat is installed, the driver's left butt is about 3 inches above the brass filler plug. This explains the fact that the noise is visceral as well as audible.

This photo also brings back a fun memory. In 1968 at a sports car race track called Bryar Motorsport Park in Loudon, New Hampshire, I had a shift control fork break inside the transmission which left me the option to shift only into 1st, neutral or reverse. In those days I drove the car to and from the various racetracks, and I was then 70 miles from Cambridge. If you will look at the top of the transmission part of the transaxle you can see an aluminum inspection plug. I unscrewed that plug, dug out my screwdriver and proceeded to drive home. I would pull away from a stoplight or toll booth in low, shift into neutral with the gearshift lever, stick the screwdriver into the transmission and try to select any other higher gear. Seemed to me at the time to be an awfully long 70 mile trip. My son Bryan still just shakes his head when I recount this adventure.

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Robert
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post #26 of 44 Old 12-20-2009, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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Dear Rik,

The very first thing to remember is that as senior citizens neither I nor the car have anything left to prove. As the current custodian of this car, I serve no purpose by blowing the motor or going off road into some unmovable object. The second consideration is that with all the trophy gathering of late, it has become rather valuable. I would characterize my driving at Road America in August as about 7/10. Remember it was a wet track, and the old brakes were cold, and the tires are skinny.

My sense is that the motor is as strong and responsive as it was when I raced it in the sixties. It retains the performance characteristic of very little punch under about 3700 rpm when the cams "come on". The cam timing for the day was quite radical with open duration for intake of 310 and exhaust of 306, an exhaust/intake overlap period of 98. Clearly a design for horsepower at higher revs. It is also a prescription for embarrassing stalls when attempting to get away from a stop. I recall quite clearly the first time I drove the car at a SCCA Drivers School at Cotati. On the back side of the course was a 180 degree turn. I entered it in too high a gear and about half way through the turn I spun out. It felt as though someone had hit me from behind, but when I looked around there was no one close. When the motor came on the cam it simply broke the rear end loose and away we went.

The power/weight ratio is somewhere between 9:1 to 10:1 which gives respectable get up and go. (172 bhp at 7000 and dry weight of 1584 pounds) The current final drive ratio is 4.54:1 which gives me about 126 mph at 7000 rpm. On that long uphill straight at Road America I was reaching a hair over 6000 in fifth which translates roughly to about 110 before I had to start my early early braking for turn one. Heavy throttle leaving turn 14 led to some fishtailing a couple of times but nothing worrisome.

Regarding sway, I have never been particularly conscious of sway in the car. There are many exciting sensory events occurring when you start to push it but lean or sway are not ones I recall. The car was one of the first with coil front spring independent suspension (previous cars had a transverse leaf suspension), and the tried and proven DeDion rear suspension provides a fairly balanced and nicely handling car. It clearly comes from a time when one needed to ensure your entry speed was slowed by the time you hit the apex.

By the way the car on the track at RA was the first time in fifty years it had been back to that track.

Best regards,

Robert
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post #27 of 44 Old 12-21-2009, 12:24 AM
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The wealth of knowledge, simply amazing. Fascinating stories. Admiral, now you need to entertain us, commoners, with you wealth of hard works and pics. What an endeavor. Thank You. w/ smiles Jimmy
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post #28 of 44 Old 12-21-2009, 05:11 AM
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Dear Robert

Many,many thanks for those extremelly detailed descriptions and photographs. Your knowledge is incredible and a real gift for us to "profit" from. Yes these Ferrari craftsman really knew what their were doing...just look at that light and sleek consruction of the whole transaxle, just wonderful.

As a owner of a Daytona, I'm right now rereading Gerald Roush's and Pat Braden's book "The Ferrari 365 GTB/4 Daytona (a "MUST" for all you Daytona drivers and enthusiasts outthere, trust me). Lots of information never knew or heard about. In Chapter 9 "Mechanicals with Old-school charm" they describe that the linkage between the accelerator pedal and the carburators inludes 38 individual mechanical items, a festival of clevis pins, threaded shafts and bearing assemblies.

Ferrari......a endless and wonderful threasure search and theme...never ending. Again many thanks Robert for you most interesting contributions.
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post #29 of 44 Old 12-24-2009, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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Dear 212Export,

You noted "they describe that the linkage between the accelerator pedal and the carburators inludes 38 individual mechanical items, a festival of clevis pins, threaded shafts and bearing assemblies".

I just counted on my car and find that I have 91 pieces between the gas pedal and the carbs. WetPet may have a carb shot which shows many of these.

Best regards,

Robert
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post #30 of 44 Old 12-25-2009, 06:36 AM
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What can I say......!
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post #31 of 44 Old 12-25-2009, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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Dear 212Export,

Karl Ludvigsen, noted automotive author, wrote in 1956 that this car was the most complex car of its size in history. So I suspect that I should not be surprised.

On the other hand my 57 MGA had a simple wire cable, with a screw clamp on the carburetor end of the cable and attached to a rocker arm on the other. The other end of the rocker arm was pushed by the accelerator. Cannot get much simpler than that.

Best regards,

Robert
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post #32 of 44 Old 12-25-2009, 02:26 PM
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A few pics of the carbs. I'm afraid all the linkage may not have been installed at this point, but check out the serial #.



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post #33 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 04:29 AM
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Wonderfull pictures, thanks for sharing wetpet!
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post #34 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Admiral Goodwrench View Post
Dear 212Export,

Karl Ludvigsen, noted automotive author, wrote in 1956 that this car was the most complex car of its size in history. So I suspect that I should not be surprised.

On the other hand my 57 MGA had a simple wire cable, with a screw clamp on the carburetor end of the cable and attached to a rocker arm on the other. The other end of the rocker arm was pushed by the accelerator. Cannot get much simpler than that.

Best regards,

Robert
Dea Robert, I guess that's part of Ferrari enthusiasm...complexity ! A very interesting point to us (younger) enthusiasts is also the fact the the 4 cylinder Ferrari's from the 50's had the cylinder heads and block as 1 piece ?!
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post #35 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
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One last entry re the carb linkages with a slight detail expansion on WetPet's photos.

Best regards,

Robert
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post #36 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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Dear 212Export,

Exactly right, attached shows the combination of cylinder head and block. This way there is no chance of a head gasket problem.

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Robert
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post #37 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 10:17 AM
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Wonderful Robert, thank you for sharing. Do you ever encountered problems with the block during that long long ownership ? Never any leaks or pressure problems ?
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post #38 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 01:07 PM
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Dear admiral,
I agree immensely with Jimmy. Refined technical knowledge of a vintage Ferrari paired with self experienced racing stories and factual impressions from the very same car. Thank you and I hope you find inspiration to keep sharing with happy amateurs like myself.

My very best regards,
il Capolino
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post #39 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 04:10 PM
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this is what the car does to the admiral. Picture by my son hunter.



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post #40 of 44 Old 12-26-2009, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Dear WetPet,

That is the appropriate expression when it starts on the first try for the judges...

Best regards,

Robert
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