F430 F1 Pressure Issue - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 34 Old 12-26-2019, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
 
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F1 Pressure Issue

Hoping someone can help??
Having issues with my F430 shifting. I have had the car for a year. When I got it the clutch was read at 47% worn. 18400 miles. Now I have 22000 miles. The car miss shifts occasionally and drops to neutral. Maybe 1or2 times in a 40 to 50 mile drive. Been chasing this issue for several months now. It all started in September on my way to a 5 day FCA club drive here in Oregon. Got the F1 gearbox light and alarm. Car wouldn't shift past 2nd. Limped it home and started checking codes. Got P1742 Selection Potentiometer. Took it to a Indie shop. They found a bad potentiometer sensor. Changed that, checked bleed screws on actuator while it was out.....Found a couple loose screws. Fixed that ,bleed system. Thought I had it fixed. Worked fine for a while. Then started to miss shifts. Never did that before. So after lots of research here is what I have done so far with help from Stef at Scud Ing Swiss. (Great guy and very smart)

New accumulator bulb (Stef recommended it be changed because its a maintenance item). Helped the pump run less
New EDiff valve ( after data logging with the Launch X431 Stef helped determine the leakage rate was too high). That made a huge improvement in shifting
New F1 pump and motor. (Again, Stef recommended changing the pump head because it was worn out due to the Ediff issue ). Another improvement in shifting and quicker prime times
New Scud Ing Swiss smart relay ( This is how I found Stef ) The Smart eMT relay made a huge difference in shifting.Smoother, Quicker, Crisper
Full flush and new Liqui Molly hydraulic fluid. ( Stef recommended changing the F1 fluid to Liqui Molly.). This made another big improvement

I didn't do all this at the same time. Spent the last few months researching and trouble shooting. Now I still get a missed shift after the car is warm and I have driven 40 to 50 miles. No Leaks or fluid anywhere. Everything is very clean and dry. Clutch seems to bite fine. The clutch wear index (according to my Launch) is 2977. I think that's good? The data logging on the Launch shows a rapid drop in pressure when the miss shift occurs. It drops to about 25 bar then recovers fast. It also shows the pump kicking on at 39.6 bar. Is that too low? Could it be the pressure switch is not turning pump on at 42 bar ? I thought I read somewhere that was the low point for pump activation ? Anybody have this issue???? Any help would be appreciated Thx. GL
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post #2 of 34 Old 12-28-2019, 01:22 AM
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Hi Greg,
Thank you for joining us here on Ferrari Life and thank you for your very kind post

We've been already exchanging quite a bit regarding your F1 issues and I'm glad that replacing the maintenance parts (pump, accumulator and E-DIFF solenoid valve) made already a big difference. It was really worth doing this because these parts won't last longer than approx 10 years.

Regarding the pressure you mentioned, usually the pump starts when the pressure drops below 42 bar. I don't think you have an issue with the pressure sensor which is reliable and I've seen only very rare cases where they failed. I'm pretty certain that there is a short time lag between the diagnostic tool and the TCU and that's why you saw the pump priming at 39.6 bar while in reality it was about 42 bar.

Regarding the random big pressure losses, I see only 2 or 3 possibilities:
1) TOB seal failure causing random leaks. There is chance this also makes your clutch slip excessively when this happens.
2) Selespeed actuator internal leak.
3) Banjo bolt or hydraulic hose failure.

Pressure loss doesn't mean that you'll have a noticeable hydraulic fluid leak. A very small invisible leak can already cause big pressure drops. Although, what you can try is to check the fluid level in your tank at equal pressure rate by measuring the fluid level from the tank neck. It's important to do that each time at the exact same pressure (check with your Launch) because the fluid level greatly varies depending on the pressure. If you see that the fluid level is getting progressively lower, that would confirm an internal system leak.

I hope this helps and thank you for letting us know how it goes.
Happy holidays and take care.
Stef
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post #3 of 34 Old 12-28-2019, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the reply Stef.

When you say check the fluid in the tank at different times? Do you mean do several different drives over a period of time and check after each drive ?

Also I found something interesting today. I was able to do some driving today ( weather has been great for Dec). What I found was that when the pressure is at 52bar and I make a shift it drops to about 45 to 46 bar and holds. Then on the second shift it drops to about 41 to 42 bar and holds . Then on the third shift is when I noticed a huge drop in pressure ........as low as 15 to 20 bar and even lower. I even saw it drop to 4 bar then recover fast. It did it very consistently today. Seems like a internal actuator leak ? at the time of the shift. It doesn't miss a shift every time on this drop but only sometimes. See pic below What do you think ? If it was the TOB I would think it would show a drop more randomly ? Thx. GL
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post #4 of 34 Old 12-28-2019, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
 
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Here is another pic from todays drive where I saw the huge drop on the third shift form 52 Bar. I think the car hit neutral on this low point. GL
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post #5 of 34 Old 12-29-2019, 07:09 AM
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You're welcome Greg.

That's correct, I meant indeed to do several drives over a period of time and check the fluid level at equal pressure after each drive. This will allow to check if you're losing fluid.

Your graphs are very interesting. It shows that the pressure drops at each gear selection are too important. With 10 bar pressure (42-52 bar range), you should be able to select minimum 3/4 gears which isn't your case. Each gear selection makes the pressure dropping about 5 bar which isn't in spec. The 3rd gear selection makes indeed a huge pressure drop. Now what's interesting is that only the 3rd and 4th gear selection opens 4 EV solenoid valves, all the other gears do open only 3 EV valves:

3rd gear: EV1, EV3, EV4 and EV5
4th gear: EV2, EV3, EV4 and EV5

For your info, EV1 and EV2 are pressure proportional solenoid valves (gear engagement) while EV3, EV4 and EV5 are on/off solenoid valves (gear selection). EVF is also a pressure proportional solenoid valve for the clutch.

Does the 4th gear selection cause also an important pressure drop?

As you know, the actuator has 3 bleed screws which tend to get loose over time. As you can see on my picture, they also have a small rubber gasket which needs to be replaced as these gaskets may wear out with time and cause leaks. Maybe this would need to be checked as a next step (requires the actuator to be removed).

Stef
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post #6 of 34 Old 12-29-2019, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the info Stef.

I know when the indie shop installed the new potentiometer sensors in October he found a loose screw on the actuator. . He said he did a bleed and then put it back together. But not sure how much time he spent? I didn't see it with my own eyes, so I have no problem pulling the actuator and changing the O rings on the screws. Then I can do 2 or 3 bleed cycles and be sure that it is done right.

Also to clarify info from my earlier post....... When I mentioned the drop in pressure as I changed gears. This was changing random gears. Not starting from 1st and going to 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. I just watched the pressure and when it was at 52 bar I changed up for down gears to get the pressure to drop and see what happened. Does this change your evaluation ? Could there be a internal leak on one one the solenoids on the Power Head Unit ? I think there is 6 or 8 of them ? Thanks again for working with me on this. It might be useful to everybody else on the forum. GL

GL430
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post #7 of 34 Old 12-30-2019, 02:48 AM
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Hi Greg,
I would be indeed a good idea to check the bleed screws again and go through a complete bleed cycle after that. It's very easy to have air been trapped in the actuator.

After that, I would suggest that you do a self-learning and check how the pressure drops (use the OEM pump relay for that because your Smart eMT Relay is not the latest V3.2 which has now the maintenance mode). You can also make a manual pressure drop check with the car standing still and shifting up the gears and check the loss of pressure for each gear shift.

Good luck

Stef
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post #8 of 34 Old 12-30-2019, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
 
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Hi Stef.

Wanted to update you on progress Took the actuator off today. The screws seemed tight. Nothing real loose. Then I put new O rings on the bleed screws and ran a bleed cycle. I heard a little woosh of air as the cycle started. Not sure if that is normal or if I really had air in the actuator ? After the cycle I tightened up the screws and put it all back together. Then I did a self learn cycle. Things seemed to work fine.

You mentioned shifting through the gears at a stand still to check pressure.....But I can only shift to First and Reverse. Seems like I need to be moving to get it past 1st gear to check pressures. I will try that tomorrow. Happy NewYear Thx. GL
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post #9 of 34 Old 12-31-2019, 01:10 AM
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Hi Greg,
Well done for the actuator. Let's hope it was only air been trapped in there. During the self learn cycle, how was the pressure holding up? I know you can't visualize it simultaneously with your tool but did the pump ran constantly or at regular intervals?

Sorry, by manually shifting through the gears stationary, I meant doing the shifts with your Launch tool. Not sure the Launch has this option to manually select each individual gear in open loop mode as the SD3/DEIS allows to do.

Happy New Year too.
Stef
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post #10 of 34 Old 12-31-2019, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
 
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Stef.

Got a chance today to drive the car and it never missed a shift. I drove it two different times about 150 miles. Before the actuator bleed it would miss a shift after about 45 min. Probably when things got warm? Seems like I had air in the actuator. Shifts seems more positive and clean. It's been a 4 month process trouble shooting. Only time will tell if its really fixed but after today I think it's good. Thanks Stef for all the help. I will keep you posted. Happy New Year !!!!! Cant wait for spring/summer driving weather. GL

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post #11 of 34 Old 01-01-2020, 06:17 AM
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That's very good news Greg, you're very welcome and thanks for posting this update. Well done, let's hope it was indeed only air trapped in the actuator and maybe one or several rubber O rings weren't sealing the bleed screws well enough anymore.

Very Happy New Year to you and your family!
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post #12 of 34 Old 01-02-2020, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
 
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Hi Stef. Looks like I celebrated too early on my F1 Issue fix. Although the actuator bleed made a big difference in shifting and I did 2 drives with no issues a few day ago. Today I do another test drive and after 45 min I get a miss shift. Then another. Then the 7 beeps from your smart F1 relay !!! I plugged in the Launch when I got home and the E diff leak rate was 83.60!! Its a new E Diff valve ? Could it be air in the E diff lines? The launch does not have E Diff bleed function on it, so Im not sure its all bled right. Could it be that? Im at a loss as too where to go now? Any thoughts? Thx. GL

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post #13 of 34 Old 01-03-2020, 05:27 AM
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Greg, if you didn't do an E-DIFF bleed after you've changed the E-DIFF solenoid valve, for sure, you have air trapped there. When you replace this valve, almost all the hydraulic fluid comes out so several bleeds are mandatory. Now it's possible that air migrated back to your actuator too...

Please have a look here where I explain how to bleed and check the E-DIFF: https://www.scuding.com/Shop/en/cont...ecommendations
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post #14 of 34 Old 01-03-2020, 07:18 AM
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BTW Greg, are you certain that the leakage rate displayed on your Launch is of the E-DIFF and not the clutch EVF? If have some doubts that the Launch really supports the E-DIFF ECU.
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post #15 of 34 Old 01-03-2020, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
 
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Stef. Looks like didn't do a bleed as you described. I will try that today. Also I think the Launch reads the Edfiff ECU but it won't do anything else with the Ediff except give you the Leakage rate in the data stream See pic below.
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post #16 of 34 Old 01-03-2020, 08:54 AM
 
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This is a great thread ..hope all works out

What power source will you be using ..

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post #17 of 34 Old 01-03-2020, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
 
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I have a 12 volt bench top power supply. It has a current control feature so I can dial in the right amps and voltage. Not sure of the brand? Going to try it later today. I will keep you posted. GL

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post #18 of 34 Old 01-03-2020, 07:57 PM
 
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Can you tell me which Liquid Moly fluid you are using for the F1? is it the Liquid moly Trans Tec 1800 ATF? Is it okay to mix with existing shell spirax S5 that I currently have or should I completely bleed the F1 fluid so only Liquid moly is in the F1? thanks,.
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post #19 of 34 Old 01-03-2020, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
 
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Itís Liqui Molly central hydraulic oil. See Scud ing Swiss website. Stef recommended it to me. Works great. GL

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post #20 of 34 Old 01-04-2020, 08:31 AM
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Greg, I think that on your Launch "Oil Leak With Clutch Electrovalve ON" and "Oil Leak With Clutch Electrovalve OFF" refers to the clutch, not the E-DIFF valve. They are the same parameters as on the SD3/DEIS "OIL LEAKAGE WITH CLUTCH SV TRIGGERED ( cc/min)" part of the F1 system. Although, I see that the Launch has a "Ediff System Leak" parameter which I suppose is a calculated value. This parameter doesn't exist on the SD3.

Try to make several bleed cycles of the E-DIFF as I described on the website. You'll see a lot air getting out at the E-DIFF bleed nipple. I would do after a complete F1 bleed cycle to make sure no air got back there.
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