Ferrari Life

Ferrari Life (https://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/)
-   Modern V8s: 360, F430 (https://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/modern-v8s-360-f430/)
-   -   F1 F430 Transmission Gear Engagement (https://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/modern-v8s-360-f430/57121-f1-f430-transmission-gear.html)

GSBennett 09-12-2017 02:35 AM

F1 F430 Transmission Gear Engagement
 
Took my toy apart last week and when I put it back together everything works but it won't shift into any gear. So, what are the triggers that will stop the transmission ECU from allowing the gear engagement?

Stop switch broken
Brake light out
Bonnet open
Engine deck lid open
Driver's door open

Are there more items to check?

Autel maxisys Obd tool can put transmission in gear, hydraulic pump and relay good, but paddles have little effect (Rpm lowers by 100 for about 2 seconds, but no sound is heard of anything moving)

David @ FluentInFerrari 09-13-2017 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregory Slatin Bennett (Post 721361)
Took my toy apart last week...

Why?
I'd be starting there...

ideloera 09-13-2017 11:36 AM

F1 F430 Transmission Gear Engagement
 
Potentiometers might need to be recalibrated?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GSBennett 09-13-2017 01:19 PM

Well David, There are things the dealer just won't consider such as installing concealed electronics to monitor speed controls... so that I might drive more responsibly, or installing electronics to improve the lighting or other systems. I understand that many may simply want to enjoy the driving pleasure but others enjoy the nuts and bolts too. Plus, when I put it together then I know what is what and don't worry about someone leaving out Loctite or a split washer...

Dear Idolera, About potentiometers, I did check the radio and the potentiometer on the volume control is still attached. Did you mean that or maybe self learning of the F1 transmission controller?

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post.

David @ FluentInFerrari 09-13-2017 02:06 PM

Hi George,

Thanks for the PM. My "tongue in cheek" response was purposeful, as many problems are often self-induced...and certainly are not limited to DIY folks, either. So, with that said, I'm going to presume that your car shifted fine before the custom electronics were installed. I am tangentially familiar with the Autel Maxisys tool, but am not aware of it's capabilities with the F1 system. If it is capable of reading F1 fault or even parameters, I can likely help you. FWIW, we use the factory SDX/SD-3 tools on the F430. That's the tool you really need for this sort of work.

A few things to check:
Any warning lights on (the dash)?
Do you hear the F1 pump running when you open the door?
Can you read the F1 pump pressure?
A puddle of ATF under the transaxle, by chance?
Do you have a gear display?
Can the Autel read the transmission input shaft speed? If so, what is it when you're sitting at idle?
Although unlikely, have you turned off the battery...then back on after sitting a bit?

I suspect that you're dealing with a wiring issue, perhaps brought on by the new electronics. However, I have found that anything is possible with these cars...
(There are gear selector potentiometers on the side of the transaxle that communicate with the TCU. That's what "ideloera" was referring to.)

GSBennett 09-13-2017 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari (Post 721529)
Hi George,

Thanks for the PM. My "tongue in cheek" response was purposeful, as many problems are often self-induced...and certainly are not limited to DIY folks, either. So, with that said, I'm going to presume that your car shifted fine before the custom electronics were installed. I am tangentially familiar with the Autel Maxisys tool, but am not aware of it's capabilities with the F1 system. If it is capable of reading F1 fault or even parameters, I can likely help you. FWIW, we use the factory SDX/SD-3 tools on the F430. That's the tool you really need for this sort of work.

A few things to check:
Any warning lights on (the dash)?
Do you hear the F1 pump running when you open the door?
Can you read the F1 pump pressure?
A puddle of ATF under the transaxle, by chance?
Do you have a gear display?
Can the Autel read the transmission input shaft speed? If so, what is it when you're sitting at idle?
Although unlikely, have you turned off the battery...then back on after sitting a bit?

I suspect that you're dealing with a wiring issue, perhaps brought on by the new electronics. However, I have found that anything is possible with these cars...
(There are gear selector potentiometers on the side of the transaxle that communicate with the TCU. That's what "ideloera" was referring to.)

Dear David,

Thanks again for the time and I can confirm the car was working fine before I touched it.

The Autel Maxisys has pages of readouts about the transmission that are live, but most of them I don't understand as I don't know what this or that actuator is doing. When I switch on the battery, there is a warning triangle that comes up at first, then go through all the initial set up and next time the ignition is turned on there is only a "Check OK" and "N" displayed. The OBD tool doesn't show any warnings on the transmission but sometimes had shown "U1706 Loss of communication with NFR" and I understand that is the communication with the sensors in the anti-lock brakes, but I am worried that it is another sensor that the transmission ECU might use to determine clutch engagement based upon attitude of the vehicle (or so some thread somewhere pointed to).

When I open the door, the F1 pump powers up and pressurizes the system in about 3 second. I haven't tried to read the pressure, but I will try to find the parameter with the Maxisys. However, if I use the Maxisys, with the engine off, to engage a gear, then the transmission will shift into whatever gear instructed, you can hear the actuators moving stuff, and then the display on the dash will confirm the proper gear is engaged. If you try to start after such a command, the transmission controller will put the car back into neutral before you can start, so it seems there might be enough pressure?

There is not puddle of any fluid under the car, but I did notice upon removing the front under body panel that there was a little (2 or 3 drops) of what looked like light colored hydraulic fluid there. It seems unrelated.

For the potential wiring issue, I had considered earlier, before breaking down and asking for help. I removed all the additions, put everything back to stock, and no change. It could be that something that I had done caused stress and a fault, I had check most fuses and will continue going through the wiring, but I don't know what things can stop the transmission from shifting, so it is difficult to know where to look.

When I start the car, it is in neutral, say idling at 1000 rpm. I make sure all the doors, hood, trunk, are shut, then press on the brake (and confirm break light is on), then press the "R" or "Up" paddle, and I can hear a little something like a relay softly engage, the rpm lowers by 100 to say 900 for about 2 seconds, then nothing happens, rpm returns to 1000. If I try to shift without my foot on the brake, I get a warning tone.

For the suggestions of "Ideloera", my ignorance of the F1 has been exposed. I have tried to run the "Self Learning" program on the transmission ECU, and hoped that would fix any problems, but there was no change. If the potentiometers were disconnected, I think there would be some fault noted, but I will check the wiring and make sure nothing is disconnected. Again, I am able to shift it with the Maxisys tool, so not sure if this is a potential.

Thanks for your help. This site and all of the members help is impressive.

David @ FluentInFerrari 09-14-2017 02:20 PM

A little more input needed
 
George,

With the engine off, but the ignition on...
-Can you (not the diagnostic tool) engage the various gears using the padals?

With the car running, can you find on your diagnostic tool (likely under parameters) the "input shaft" speed?

The answers to thee two questions will give us a starting point in solving your issue.

GSBennett 09-15-2017 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari (Post 721626)
George,

With the engine off, but the ignition on...
-Can you (not the diagnostic tool) engage the various gears using the padals?

With the car running, can you find on your diagnostic tool (likely under parameters) the "input shaft" speed?

The answers to thee two questions will give us a starting point in solving your issue.



With engine off, ignition on, all doors and compartments shut, Brake pedal depressed, I can't engage the gears with the paddles. With the diagnostic tool in the same condition, I can engage the gears.


With the engine on, also can't use the paddles, and scared to try the diagnostic tool in such a condition. OBD tool shows "Brake Pedal Switch" as Pressed, and "Drivers Door State" as Closed, "Key input state" as On, "Gearbox primary rpm" as 962 and "engine rpm" as 1010, "Levers state" changes from "Neutral" to "Up" or whatever I do as it should, "Gear Requested" shows "1st" or "Reverse" as I do, but "Gear Engaged" stays as "Neutral" , The "Hydraulic Pressure Circuit" shows 852 Bar and "Clutch actuator pressure" 739 Bar. I don't see an "input shaft speed" on this tool, but did you mean the "Gearbox primary rpm" or such?

David @ FluentInFerrari 09-16-2017 09:06 AM

Conflicting data
 
Hi George,

Well, there are definitely safeguards in place to prevent you from engaging gears...

Terminology issues aside, with the transaxle input shaft speed as high as it is, gear engagement will simply not be possible. The TCU is looking for a number close to zero, indicating that the clutch is disengaged. With a shaft speed, in neutral, over 900 rpm, the clutch is clearly dragging. Why? I do not know, as you state that it shift fine before. I would look at the PIS parameter and see where it is. I would expect it to be in the 4-5 range. For now, I would set it to 6 and see if you can engage a gear. We really need to see the transaxle input shaft speed be near zero rpm.

On your pressure readings, they are erroneous. We would expect to see approx 48-54 bar. This is likely a tool data interpretation error. Unfortunately, even using the factory SD tools, some of the parameters reported are incorrect or off by a factor of 10.

Getting back to why you can't put her into gear with the key on, engine off: this is very odd behavior. Your tool is telling you that "you're on the brake pedal" and allows gear selection, yet the TCU clearly does not see the brake pedal switch as engaged, as that is the safeguard preventing gear engagement. I need to think about this scenario a bit more, but I would verify with a DVM that the brake light switch and its connector have integrity and are working correctly.

Meanwhile, please PM me the details of what specifc aftermarket electronics were installed...and where/how you tapped into the car. This too may be revealing.

Best,
David

dave rocks 09-16-2017 02:14 PM

George,

Here are a couple sites that have some helpful F1 information:

F1 and E Gear System Actuators | craig-waterman.com

https://aldousvoice.com/2014/08/07/f...tch-operation/

If you need the 430 WSM, send me and email (not PM) and I can get it to you.

[email protected]

GSBennett 09-17-2017 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari (Post 721706)
Hi George,

Well, there are definitely safeguards in place to prevent you from engaging gears...

Terminology issues aside, with the transaxle input shaft speed as high as it is, gear engagement will simply not be possible. The TCU is looking for a number close to zero, indicating that the clutch is disengaged. With a shaft speed, in neutral, over 900 rpm, the clutch is clearly dragging. Why? I do not know, as you state that it shift fine before. I would look at the PIS parameter and see where it is. I would expect it to be in the 4-5 range. For now, I would set it to 6 and see if you can engage a gear. We really need to see the transaxle input shaft speed be near zero rpm.

On your pressure readings, they are erroneous. We would expect to see approx 48-54 bar. This is likely a tool data interpretation error. Unfortunately, even using the factory SD tools, some of the parameters reported are incorrect or off by a factor of 10.

Getting back to why you can't put her into gear with the key on, engine off: this is very odd behavior. Your tool is telling you that "you're on the brake pedal" and allows gear selection, yet the TCU clearly does not see the brake pedal switch as engaged, as that is the safeguard preventing gear engagement. I need to think about this scenario a bit more, but I would verify with a DVM that the brake light switch and its connector have integrity and are working correctly.

Meanwhile, please PM me the details of what specifc aftermarket electronics were installed...and where/how you tapped into the car. This too may be revealing.

Best,
David


Dear David,


I data I had previously was from the recorder, but I did it again and wrote it down. There seems to be some difference. For the pump, it shows 52 after opening the door, then slowly goes down to 40 before pumping back up and this takes many minutes.


The PIS was set to 3.991 and I reset it to 6, tried to change gears with engine on or off an no change. Clutch position closed is 17.900 and


Another strange thing is that if I use the OBD tool to put the transmission in Reverse or other, then disconnect and turn off and on the ignition, then try to shift, it will stay in gear. If I select neutral, it will pull it out of gear and put into neutral (with the paddles). Then again it won't go into any gear.


There are a few other sensors that might be telling: "Start input state: Off", "Switch Status m/a Shift: off", Control for the 3 electrovalve for selection: Solenoid off", "Clutch above pis: 0", "clutch hydraulic fault: 0", "Failed disengagement: 0", "Clutch actuator pressure: 0 (and this stayed at zero no matter what I pressed on paddles", "Clutch electrovalve auto-calibration state: not active", "Accelerometer offset self-calibration outcome: not started"


I will change the brake pedal switch (since an new one arrived anyway) and write you PM about the electronics.
Best wishes.

GSBennett 09-17-2017 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave rocks (Post 721722)
George,

Here are a couple sites that have some helpful F1 information:

F1 and E Gear System Actuators | craig-waterman.com

https://aldousvoice.com/2014/08/07/f...tch-operation/

If you need the 430 WSM, send me and email (not PM) and I can get it to you.

[email protected]


Thanks for the direction Dave.

dave rocks 09-19-2017 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSBennett (Post 721770)
Thanks for the direction Dave.

My pleasure. I hope you found those links helpful.

excursion 09-21-2017 12:24 PM

Can you run through exactly what has been done; the mechanical work and the exact stage when diagnostics were used, and to do what.

What year is the car and what part number on the TCU?

GSBennett 09-27-2017 11:46 PM

Continuing to Search for the unplugged connector
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by excursion (Post 722026)
Can you run through exactly what has been done; the mechanical work and the exact stage when diagnostics were used, and to do what.

What year is the car and what part number on the TCU?

The car is 2008 and ECU has F131EU MY08 KS, then CFC301 and N.DIS..247772 SWEAFD86B04

The car was working fine, I opened up the fuse box in the front to work on DRL and installing LED taillights, opened up the access panel in the front chasing an oil leak, then tried to put it into gear and it wouldn't go. So, then I reversed my install of lights and DRL but still reacts the same. The other electronics seem unrelated (tire pressure sensor, radio Bluetooth, detector, rear view camera) but anyway some were wired to a custom mirror that has an LCD screen and other displays in it so that means I had to take out most of the interior excepting the dash to run wires and such.

When I couldn't get it to go into gear then I purchased the Maxisys hoping that would point me to whatever I unplugged. However I remain stumped and can't find anything wrong.

Why would the TCU not open the clutch and put it into gear if doors shut and all is right? What other signals would cause it to ignore the Up, or Reverse switch (as it clearly can sense it and the brake light switch, and has pressure to the pump and can move in and out of gear with the Maxisys tool when engine is off).

The only thing I have found was a connector in the front near the brake cylinder that is hanging loose with nowhere to plug in and nothing else seems out of place.

StefVan 09-28-2017 01:34 AM

Hi Greg, sorry to hear that you're still fighting this issue. Would it be possible to film the sequence of ignition on, start engine, then press brake pedal + paddles to N and attempt to go in first gear or reverse? Filming any beeps and indications on the instrument panel may be useful.

Can you take picture of the loose connector too? It may be a diagnostics connector as there are several on the F430.

Many thanks
Stef

excursion 09-28-2017 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSBennett (Post 722226)
The car is 2008 and ECU has F131EU MY08 KS, then CFC301 and N.DIS..247772 SWEAFD86B04

The car was working fine, I opened up the fuse box in the front to work on DRL and installing LED taillights, opened up the access panel in the front chasing an oil leak, then tried to put it into gear and it wouldn't go. So, then I reversed my install of lights and DRL but still reacts the same. The other electronics seem unrelated (tire pressure sensor, radio Bluetooth, detector, rear view camera) but anyway some were wired to a custom mirror that has an LCD screen and other displays in it so that means I had to take out most of the interior excepting the dash to run wires and such.

When I couldn't get it to go into gear then I purchased the Maxisys hoping that would point me to whatever I unplugged. However I remain stumped and can't find anything wrong.

Why would the TCU not open the clutch and put it into gear if doors shut and all is right? What other signals would cause it to ignore the Up, or Reverse switch (as it clearly can sense it and the brake light switch, and has pressure to the pump and can move in and out of gear with the Maxisys tool when engine is off).

The only thing I have found was a connector in the front near the brake cylinder that is hanging loose with nowhere to plug in and nothing else seems out of place.

Can you disconnect the battery negative terminal for ten minutes? From memory the master switch doesn't kill power to the TCU; I find the TCUs do keep information stored until they are fully powered off for ten minutes (what they keep is not covered in any documentation but they do behave slightly differently, and it's nothing to do with a learning process).

Reconnect to power, and using your diag tool connect to the TCU and check the BRAKE PEDAL STATUS parameter is updated when you press the brake. It takes half a second or so to update on the screen.

Does the engine start?

Have you attempted a self-learn? (I don't recommend this - I just want to know)

excursion 09-28-2017 11:58 AM

P.S. Also check the LEVER STATUS parameter updates when you press the paddles.

excursion 09-28-2017 12:00 PM

Sorry, I realised you have done most of the above and the engine starts.

Try the battery disconnect.

GSBennett 10-03-2017 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by excursion (Post 722266)
Sorry, I realised you have done most of the above and the engine starts.

Try the battery disconnect.

Good idea. Tried the battery disconnect and disconnected the TCU for 10 minutes just in case. No change in behavior. There is a warning triangle that comes up upon reconnecting the battery and first ignition on, but I understand that as normal (right?) and it goes away after the first cycle. Hmmm.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale