360 Hi - my first Ferrari and 360 to CS project! - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 6 Old 05-21-2016, 01:49 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2016
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Hi - my first Ferrari and 360 to CS project!

Hi everyone - thought it was about time to come on after lurking for ages.

So after many years of owning other marques I finally bought a lovely 17k 2000 360 F1 - it's silver with a black interior and was supplied to me by Nick Cartwright in the UK. Anyone know the car?

Anyway it's a fantastic machine - I really now understand what all the fuss is about. There is something extremely special about driving it even though now obviously it's an old car using outdated technology.

As petrolheads (and not accountants!) I'm sure you will also be able to understand the collection of genuine challenge stradale parts that I am amassing :-) with a view to creating a full tribute car from mine, perhaps in the winter. I confess that the parts are vastly more expensive than I thought they would be, and also that there are A LOT of differences between the CS and the 360. I have spent a great deal of time logging CS and 360 part numbers and differences, and have a spreadsheet of this information coming together which I'll share once I've finished it. It's quite a document.

I have also managed to get myself tangled up in some trouble with a bad parts seller that ripped me off for 8900 euros (but more on this later)

On a happier note I managed to bump in to Neil at Eurospares in the UK and Josh at exotic auto recycling in the US who have both been really amazing at helping me find (genuine) bits!
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post #2 of 6 Old 05-21-2016, 06:20 PM
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Location: 3rd rock from the sun
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Welcome and that is quite the project yu are taking on. As a CS owner, I can tell you there is a huge difference between the standard car and the CS.

There is another guy in the UK that has already done what you are attempting. You two should get together.

Best of luck.

Ciao

Dino
TR, F40, Mondialt cab, 308QV, 348 Challenge, CS
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post #3 of 6 Old 05-22-2016, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks so much - yes - the CS is so different. In fact my motivation for the project was almost one of learning and discovery as much as the desire to do something really difficult. A brief summary of where I am with it is that the total cost will be way more than the ordinary Modena donor car - already is - anyone thinking they can do it cheaply is going to be disappointed for sure.

I haven't had chance to meet or talk to 360trev yet (I think this is the guy you mean?) but his project was different in concept since he wanted a manual "cs" and actually went much further by improving upon Ferrari's cs specification with an orientation towards a very racy car.

My build will be 100% factory rhd parts (which is a nightmare in itself since the lhd bits are much more common and there are many more differences than you'd think between lhd and rhd cs) - and also there are very many world market cs differences which yield tons of part number choices. Additional confusion abounds because depending on the build number of the standard Modena there are many more overlaps between standard car and CS. (Wiring is a great example here with later Modena cars adopting much of the cs wiring part numbers)

At the moment my current decision process is what to do with the engine. Against the opinion that I know 360trev has I don't believe that installing the cs maps on the standard engine is the optimum solution, given that the cs motor has the following differences: different Pistons, different crankcase, different cylinder heads, different air flow meters, different airbox. Different final exhaust. You'll note that it's strange but true that the headers are the same, the rods are the same and the camshafts are the same. So far therefore it looks like the modifications are designed to offer fractionally higher compression and better breathing only, therefore, but in my experience of engine mapping those differences would be enough to mean that the cs map wouldn't be perfect for, say, a 360 engine running updated headers, cats, final exhaust and maybe a challenge style inlet pipe and cs air flow meters. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but it doesn't strike me as perfect.

So above you see the blur on this - where do you make the cutoff in the conversion. That's the decision I haven't made yet. I can actually get a complete engine - swap that - but then the motor number isn't the same as my cars documents and my 360 is probably too nice to do that to it. Other choice is get the heads, pistons and machine the block height slightly to perfectly replicate cs on the proper engine number for my car - that's a lovely solution - but again seems a shame to split a 17000 mile original motor.

So lots to think about but in the mean time - other than getting done over for 8900 euros on parts by a con man I'm enjoying the process of learning and amassing bits.

Oh finally - the other thing is it's really hard to decide on stuff like seats. I have a set of the original cs Modena optional seats but I don't like them as much as the racing seats that they used in the challenge series - it's very hard to decide how to go with that - original or what you want. Again a scope issue.

Anyway thanks for your reply and I hope my project
Is interesting!

Best regards

Julian
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post #4 of 6 Old 05-22-2016, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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Oooo yes and one thing - can you do me a huge favour and take me some pictures in detail of your steering wheel please? That would be really helpful! Email is [email protected]

Best

J
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post #5 of 6 Old 05-26-2016, 03:48 AM
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Hello Julian,
My 1st thought after reading your messages is that you should just go out and buy a CS... Seriously, if you want an F1 car and you don't want to butcher your mint low mileage 360 its a serious question you need to ask.

My rationale comes from that you seem to be fixating about little details like if the engine pistons are exactly the same yet the bigger picture is you'll get much better (noticeable) gains from say Sports cats across the entire rev range too.

The truth being it will never have a CS chassis number so you'll never get it 'exactly' the same and it seems like your trying to get it exactly the same no matter what the cost. Purists will always look down their noses at your 'replica' - even if its cost hundreds of thousands to get 'exactly' right.

If however your had the clear goals to improve on it, and lets be honest there are many areas which this is possible, especially today, then you can get a car that not only handles better but is more powerful, have lower weight and will be a joy to own.

I actually have the Ferrari factory Challenge Stradale Technical lead as one of my LinkedIn friends so if you would like to know what Ferrari would have done with unlimited budget I have the means to ask questions directly....

Also lets be clear here there are little changes which make a big difference, e.g. the modification which comes from the 430 Scuderia which adds soft/hard mode damper switch independent of the race mode for engine maps/throttle response and f1 shift is also high up there in the real world as 'what it should have always had' and the list goes on... Back to the pistons thing, I actually said its simply not worth chasing the extra few hp's that the slightly higher CR yields (its less than 5hp) and most of that actually comes from the fact that they are properly balanced to 0.5% tolerances of the challenge program. By the time you've opened up the engine and done this its into big money for minuscule gains, you'd be better off spending the cash elsewhere as you can gain from other area's better bang for buck. If you wanted serious increases you'd be better looking at engine transplants rather than opening up the 3.6 which was already pretty efficient anyway.

The big money ticket is weight (or lack of it). You can junk as much as 250-300kg's out of the car if you are serious about it. That's huge and the difference in performance is just jaw dropping.

Strive for perfection in everything we do. Take the best that exists and make it better.
When it does not exist, design it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough.
Henry Royce
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post #6 of 6 Old 05-30-2016, 06:08 AM Thread Starter
 
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Hi Trev so nice to meet you. I loved the car you built and your engineering ethos and methodical approach.

I think you raise many great points - for sure I have progressed far down a road that probably I shouldn't have! I now have maybe 70% of what I need but I would love to ask the question of your friend what Ferrari would have done to make the cs more special even than it is now!

In the mean time I have a very exotic bunch of parts and a still beautiful 360.

If I do go ahead what about the cs maps with some tubular manifolds, race cats, challenge intake (no helmholtz) and a (rare!) challenge exhaust? A good plan or go to a tuner directly for a custom map?

Best wishes

Julian
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