F430 Sluggish Cold Starts - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 25 Old 08-31-2015, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
 
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Sluggish Cold Starts

I'm sure this topic has been covered somewhere however, I'm wondering whether anyone has recently had experience with sluggish cold engine starts (car has sat overnight or longer)? Potential causes and remedies?

I have an 05 F430 Spider F1 with 7,300 kms on it. A couple of months ago, I noticed that the engine was becoming more sluggish and slow when starting from cold. The rough start lasts approximately 2 seconds or so before things kick in and the RPM's rev to 1,200. From this point forward, all systems are normal and the RPM's drop back to 1,000 after a few minutes. The system check shows OK before I press the Start button and I've had the dealer scan the car. No error codes or problems were detected.

I'm not sure but one other issue is that the center instrument cluster no longer displays the "mode", except for Racing mode. All other modes are displayed for 2-3 seconds when selecting from the Manetino and then the display light goes out. The dealer scanned the car for errors or problems and determined that the Manetino is functioning properly with each mode. They said it could be a problem with the instrument cluster display system, but I find it odd that only Racing mode remains "on" or "lit" when selected.

Any insight is appreciated.


By the way, I always utilize an OEM Ferrari battery tender when the car is not driven. The battery in the car was changed 13 months ago by the dealer and seems fine.

Thanks,
Ferrari Nube!

Last edited by Ferrari Nube; 08-31-2015 at 04:01 PM. Reason: additional info
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post #2 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 12:52 AM
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I was going to suggest battery for the sluggish starts but if that's relatively new then i'm out of options

You driving mode display is working correctly, only race stays on because it's a mode that you don't want to forget your in if conditions are bad, less traction control etc, all the rest just display for a few seconds as you describe then the display shows the clock. All working normally.

John,
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post #3 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 07:14 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks John for the information regarding the "mode". I wasn't sure if there was anything wrong with the car or whether it was my imagination.... Good to know it's only me! LOL

As for the sluggish starts, I was wondering about the battery as well. I've read somewhere that the battery tender doesn't necessarily help significantly when a car sits for extended periods but maybe that's wrong information. I use Ctek tenders on my Porsche and it makes a tremendous difference as the car starts strongly from cold even after months of storage.

In addition, I read on this forum that it could be a fuel supply issue and that the ECU needs to be adjusted to provide more fuel on initial start up? Anyways, maybe it's a sign that I should try to drive the car more often...

Cheers
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post #4 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 11:00 AM
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Driving it more always helps

John.
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post #5 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 12:36 PM
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Sluggish to turn over, sluggish to come up on fast idle...or just idles poorly/rough for the first few seconds?

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post #6 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 01:40 PM
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This happened to me. A new battery solved the problem.
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post #7 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
Sluggish to turn over, sluggish to come up on fast idle...or just idles poorly/rough for the first few seconds?


Hi David,


It's mostly sluggish to come up on a fast idle although the initial turn over is sluggish as well (car starts on initial attempt to start).... I contacted today and the dealer who said that this is a fairly common problem with 360/430's since the engine is run by two motronic ECU's (1 for each bank of cylinders). They noted that sometimes one bank fires before the other, causing the engine to run extremely rough and even stalling in extreme circumstances.


The dealer recommended that I turn off the car immediately if it starts sluggishly and that it should fire up quickly/ regularly upon the restart. I am not sure this is the optimal solution to the issue but I guess they're trying to save me money on less important issues??


Anyways, I checked around Ferrari Life threads and found a similar issue noted with the solution that the ECU should be reprogrammed to allow more fuel on initial start ups. Another thread also noted that a complete fuel system cleanse should be performed to ensure that there are no performance inhibiting build-ups...


Any insight is appreciated!


Cheers
Richard


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post #8 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuderiaAudio View Post
This happened to me. A new battery solved the problem.
I was wondering about this as well however, the car received a new battery at the dealer just about a year ago and it's always on a tender when not on use....


Cheers
Richard
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post #9 of 25 Old 09-01-2015, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelej View Post
Driving it more always helps

John.


LOL! I know... that's what everyone I know says to me.... Even the Porsche mechanic who services my 911 says that I'm going to have more issues with my cars because they don't get driven enough and to stop driving like "grandma"....
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post #10 of 25 Old 09-02-2015, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post

...although the initial turn over is sluggish as well (.

Have the battery load tested to confirm condition. Start with the basics first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post
It's mostly sluggish to come up on a fast idle... I contacted today and the dealer who said that this is a fairly common problem with 360/430's since the engine is run by two motronic ECU's (1 for each bank of cylinders).
Although true, the two motonics units have little to do with the problem. Currently stored adaptive values, coupled with the self-learning process of your electronic throttle bodies are in play here. Also, there are a few other items in play that I'll discuss in a moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post
They noted that sometimes one bank fires before the other, causing the engine to run extremely rough and even stalling in extreme circumstances.
Well, that's quite the explanation, but no even close to reality. As electrons travel at the speed of light, the likelihood of the two ECUs received time-shifted signals (that any mere mortal could perceive) is zero.

[quote=Ferrari Nube;655401] The dealer recommended that I turn off the car immediately if it starts sluggishly and that it should fire up quickly/ regularly upon the restart. I am not sure this is the optimal solution to the issue but I guess they're trying to save me money on less important issues??

/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post
They noted that sometimes one bank fires before the other, causing the engine to run extremely rough and even stalling in extreme circumstances.
Well, that's quite the explanation, but no even close to reality. As electrons travel at the speed of light, the likelihood of the two ECUs received time-shifted signals (that any mere mortal could perceive) is zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post
The dealer recommended that I turn off the car immediately if it starts sluggishly and that it should fire up quickly/ regularly upon the restart. I am not sure this is the optimal solution to the issue but I guess they're trying to save me money on less important issues??
No. The optimal solution, if and only if, adaptive values are corrupted would be (with an SD-3) to clear the values stored and go through three restarts. What they're asking you to do makes zero sense...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post
They noted that sometimes one bank fires before the other, causing the engine to run extremely rough and even stalling in extreme circumstances.
Well, that's quite the explanation, but no even close to reality. As electrons travel at the speed of light, the likelihood of the two ECUs received time-shifted signals (that any mere mortal could perceive) is zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post
Anyways, I checked around Ferrari Life threads and found a similar issue noted with the solution that the ECU should be reprogrammed to allow more fuel on initial start ups.
Fix the root cause of your problem first. My experience with "tuners" is that often times they create more problems than they solve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari Nube View Post
Another thread also noted that a complete fuel system cleanse should be performed to ensure that there are no performance inhibiting build-ups...
And this is where I would start. With so few miles over so many years, the injectors would be where I would start. I would remove them and send them to a pro to have them cleaned and flow-tested. On the car snake-oil treatments are nowhere near as effective. Secondly, I would put an oscilloscope on the two MAFS and view there waveforms during start-up. A bad or failing MAF will typically not set a code, but will have a significant effect on how the car runs during the start-up phase. Keep in mind that just because you "don't have a code," that doesn't mean that there's nothing wrong.

There's a lot more to discuss, but until the basics are done and confirmed, there's no real need to elaborate. I have had this exact problem in my shop "deemed normal-they all do that...blah, blah and blah." All have been repaired and now start smoothly every time.

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post #11 of 25 Old 09-02-2015, 10:16 AM
 
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Would any of the injector cleaning fuel additives be worth trying?
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post #12 of 25 Old 09-02-2015, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
 
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Hi David,


Thanks very much for your insight into this issue. Looks like I'll be digging around to source a strong independent service place to help solve the problem. I pretty much got the sense that unless the problem showed up as a specific error code, the dealer wouldn't be able to help me. The reputation that some dealers have are suspect at times and unfortunately for me, there really isn't much choice in a smaller market like mine.


I'll start with the fuel injection cleansing and testing to see where things are at.... Too bad you're on the opposite side of the county. If you were in Washington state, I'd come down to the US for detailed service!


Cheers and thanks again,


Richard
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post #13 of 25 Old 09-02-2015, 11:31 AM
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Richard,

First and foremost, thank you for your kind words. We're just a bit too far away to make the service economically feasible..You are 100% correct with regards to "no code, no fault, hence there must be no problem" attitude . Sadly, diagnostic skills are acquired through experience and sometimes that;s just hard to find today. Fault codes tell us often what has happened, not what caused that result....

You could try a product like Techron and see if there's any benefit. More non-biased studies show that most of these products do little, but it is an inexpensive experiment. Keep in mind that partially dirty injector and/or a failing MAF will not trip a fault code. As I said before, I'll start with pulling the injectors and having a specialist clean them.

Best,
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post #14 of 25 Old 09-02-2015, 04:21 PM
 
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I had the same problem. Sometimes taking two turns of the key to start the car, then about a 2 second rough idle time. On occasion there would be a slight misfire when starting to drive the car.
I did the same thing, get a new battery which did not work. No codes thrown and the car would work fine after the initial start up.
My problem ended up being the MAFS. An easy fix and if you order off ebay (out of Germany- three day shipping to the US) they are under $300 each.
My car starts right up, no occasional misfire.
Remember, unless you drive your car every day, keep it on a battery tender. Something about these cars bleed electrical energy off the battery even when they just sit.
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post #15 of 25 Old 09-03-2015, 06:53 AM
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Regarding MAFs, only use genuine Bosch units.
There are three options:
-Ferrari: More expensive, genuine, work as designed
-Bosch: Less expensive, Original equipment, work as designed
-Unknown eBay brand: very inexpensive, look identical to OE, performance dubious->Never to be used

As I don't subscribe to the school of replacing parts for the sake of replacing parts due to the lack of diagnostic skills, I would merely scope them. The Bosch 5-wire MAF performs like any other MAF of similar design so there's not too much mys trey if there's a problem. It is important though to test them in similar conditions to when rough running occurs, as their performance can change as they worm up or cool down.

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post #16 of 25 Old 09-03-2015, 07:16 AM
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My battery was less than a year old when replacing it solved this problem.
Replacing the MAFs did not solve this problem for me.
When the problem does happen, turning off the key and restarting (as others have suggested) eliminates the problem.
I have come to the conclusion that our cars are possessed.


If you ever have to replace your MAFs (as I had to to eliminate a constant error code), you can get them for $150 each from RockAuto. Genuine Bosch, same part number.
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post #17 of 25 Old 09-21-2015, 07:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuderiaAudio View Post
My battery was less than a year old when replacing it solved this problem.
Replacing the MAFs did not solve this problem for me.
When the problem does happen, turning off the key and restarting (as others have suggested) eliminates the problem.
I have come to the conclusion that our cars are possessed.


If you ever have to replace your MAFs (as I had to to eliminate a constant error code), you can get them for $150 each from RockAuto. Genuine Bosch, same part number.

I'm experiencing the same symptoms with my 08 430. Only on cold start and very rough idle for approximately 3 - 5 seconds, then clears it's throat and runs fine. The car is always kept on a tender but I'm unaware of the age of the battery. Perhaps I'll start with a battery just as a preventative maintenance item, and then perhaps try the MAF's.

Will I find a number on the MAF's to source them from Rock Auto?

Thanks!
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post #18 of 25 Old 09-24-2015, 09:08 PM
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My 575M had the same problem and having the injectors professionally cleaned with installation of new seals solved the problem. A pretty easy job and cost of the cleaning should be less than $300 plus labor and shipping. I had three leaking injectors (575M and F430 both have Motronic 7.1.1 and similar injectors) and apparently fuel was puddling in the combustion chambers, leading to the rough start. A double start cleared out the excess fuel when they were dirty and leaking, so a pretty good check to see if that is the problem. Here are the before and after results of RC cleaning and resealing my injectors. I now get clean starts to a 1400 rpm cold idle.

Comes from not driving her enough over a long period of time and probably alcohol deterioration of the rubber seals. New ones are Viton, so alcohol is not an issue.
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post #19 of 25 Old 09-25-2015, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Taz, This is great information as well.


I am just starting to vet my problem and will be sourcing a place that can properly address fuel injectors. My problem is that I don't know who can do it. I will try a local independent who works on many sports cars, and used to race the F430's, so he's quite knowledgeable. I asked him about my problem and he basically reiterated the same process that [email protected] detailed out in this thread. Thus, I have a certain level of trust and comfort with him.


I tried a container of the Lucas Oil Fuel System cleaner and it helped a little but not much. The independent gave me a container of Bluechem, a fuel system cleaner that is engineered and manufactured in Germany. I poured it in the other day when I fuelled up and will do a cold start tonight. We'll see whether this Bluechem stuff is any help....


My thoughts are in line with a fuel system and injector cleaning . Hopefully, I can find a reputable place in town soon.


Cheers
FN.
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post #20 of 25 Old 09-25-2015, 01:23 PM
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FN- I would not let someone who has not done thousands of them touch the injectors. Take them off, box them up with each wrapped in paper towels in a baggie with the injector number on it, and send them off. RC Engineering has done thousands of these and turn-around is very quick. Plus they have all the correct Viton seals on hand, so no fiddling around.

Dave can tell you how difficult the injectors are to remove on an F430. On a 575M, it is a very simple job. Any fluid you use will give at best temporary results if the rubber seals are shot. I was ODing mine on Techron concentrate, but it finally got to the point where that did not work, either.

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