360 CS Hot Start Issue...... - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 26 Old 05-17-2015, 06:13 AM Thread Starter
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CS Hot Start Issue......

Several Ferraris I have had (TR, 348), developed 'hot' start problems.

The solution that worked was to install a hot start kit from BAP. It consists of a relay and a wire harness, which is wired into the connections near the starter.

A friend's CS developed a similar 'Challenge'. However, after installing the kit, I found that when the key is turned to the 'on' position, the starter motor starts turning (without hitting the 'start' button.

We checked and rechecked the wiring and it was correct. The starter has been replaced. The voltage at the starter is 12.86 V at the main power source. The voltage at the small (black) wire with the key at the 'on' position is 0.84 V, and 10.85 V when the 'start' button is pressed when cold, which starts the car.

Has anyone experienced this condition? What was the solution? Why wouldn't the 'kit' work properly in this application.

Thanks in advance.

Ciao

Dino
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post #2 of 26 Old 05-18-2015, 08:58 AM
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The CS has no need for an auxiliary relay to aid starting. Those units were designed to get maximum amperage and voltage straight from the battery to the starter motor and solenoid. The harness connectors now use weather insulating elements which reduces resistance inducing corrosion and the starters fitted in these more modern cars are far more efficient than the old Bosch units.


You should remove this add on relay unit and check for a voltage drop. I presume you have already vetted the battery and it isn't suffering from a failing cell, dropping off amperage just enough when hot to be a problem? Assuming the battery has already been checked and eliminated, I find it more likely that a ground from the engine to the chassis or the battery negative to the chassis has excessive resistance or is loose.


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post #3 of 26 Old 05-18-2015, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
The CS has no need for an auxiliary relay to aid starting. Those units were designed to get maximum amperage and voltage straight from the battery to the starter motor and solenoid. The harness connectors now use weather insulating elements which reduces resistance inducing corrosion and the starters fitted in these more modern cars are far more efficient than the old Bosch units.


You should remove this add on relay unit and check for a voltage drop. I presume you have already vetted the battery and it isn't suffering from a failing cell, dropping off amperage just enough when hot to be a problem? Assuming the battery has already been checked and eliminated, I find it more likely that a ground from the engine to the chassis or the battery negative to the chassis has excessive resistance or is loose.
Josh: Thanks for the reply. It was pretty obvious that harness was not going to be a solution (as it was with earlier cars), and was removed.

The battery in the car is about 4.5 years old. It holds a charge, starts the car, etc.

When cranking, there is 10.5 V at the starter.... which started the car.... when cold.

I have been hunting for a good wiring diagram for the car, but have come up empty.

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Dino
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Last edited by Ingenere; 05-18-2015 at 08:52 PM.
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post #4 of 26 Old 05-19-2015, 06:14 AM
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10.5V is not adequate to get proper cranking. You shouldn't see a drop of more than 1v during cranking. In your case, your DMM shows 12.8v at rest on the battery, for cranking voltage to drop below 11.5V, indicates the battery is weak. That is without testing grounds and such.


A life span of 4.5yrs on a battery in a Ferrari is pretty long, in my experience. The lack of use really affects the cells ability to hold a proper charge. Before you make yourself crazy, pull the battery out and bring it somewhere local for a load test and report. I believe the battery is marginal, just not totally toast quite yet.


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post #5 of 26 Old 05-19-2015, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
10.5V is not adequate to get proper cranking. You shouldn't see a drop of more than 1v during cranking. In your case, your DMM shows 12.8v at rest on the battery, for cranking voltage to drop below 11.5V, indicates the battery is weak. That is without testing grounds and such.


A life span of 4.5yrs on a battery in a Ferrari is pretty long, in my experience. The lack of use really affects the cells ability to hold a proper charge. Before you make yourself crazy, pull the battery out and bring it somewhere local for a load test and report. I believe the battery is marginal, just not totally toast quite yet.
I didn't realize how old the battery is. I bought the car in 2010 and within a few months it needed a battery. I also didn't realize that I've had this car almost 5 years!

The battery is probably a good place to start.

Thanks for your help.

Whether a weak battery or ground, what would be the reason it will only give problems when hot?

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Dino
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post #6 of 26 Old 05-25-2015, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Battery replaced. We shall see.......

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post #7 of 26 Old 05-30-2015, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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Well, it wasn't the battery.

The car has had the starter replaced.

I tried the relay fix that made things crazy, so I took it out.

Fresh battery, and problem persists.

Any ideas?

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post #8 of 26 Old 05-30-2015, 03:45 PM
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Please clarify the problem:
Is the car hard to turn over (e.g. the starter turns slowly) when hot, or...
Is the car hard to start when hot?

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post #9 of 26 Old 05-31-2015, 09:54 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Please clarify the problem:
Is the car hard to turn over (e.g. the starter turns slowly) when hot, or...
Is the car hard to start when hot?
Thanks for responding. Here's the history and fix attempts so far.

It first started after hard track sessions. Now, it just seems to be related to any rides over 20-30 mins, and seems to be heat related. When attempting to restart a hot engine (after sitting longer than a minute, as it will restart immediately after stopping), you can hear the solenoid attempt to engage (click), but the car won't crank and start until it cools off, which usually takes 30 mins.

Fixes:

1. Replaced starter... no change.

2. Since I had this problem with a 348 and TR as well, the fix was adding a Bosch WR1 hot start kit, which consists of a relay and a wire harness, wired near the starter. It worked on those cars like a charm. However, on the CS, after it was wired in it seemed to bypass the 'start button'. In other words, when the key is turned to the 'on' position, the starter begins cranking and doesn't stop, which isn't a solution and was removed.

3. Since the battery was almost 5 years old, it was suggested to replace it. I replaced it and also checked the charging system, other possible drains, etc. There were no other problems other than a slightly weak battery. New battery... no change

Voltage at the starter was 12.8 and 10.8 at the small wire when cranking. These were made with the engine cold, with the old battery. Car started with these numbers when cold.

I've spoken with a couple of Ferrari techs that I am friendly with and they are stumped. They all said that they had never seen a 360 or CS with this issue. At this point, I am puzzled as well.

Thanks again for your input.

Ciao

Dino
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-01-2015, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenere View Post
.... When attempting to restart a hot engine (after sitting longer than a minute, as it will restart immediately after stopping), you can hear the solenoid attempt to engage (click), but the car won't crank and start until it cools off, which usually takes 30 mins.
OK-This tells us that it is a starter circuit problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenere View Post
Since the battery was almost 5 years old, it was suggested to replace it. I replaced it and also checked the charging system, other possible drains, etc. There were no other problems other than a slightly weak battery. New battery... no change
Probably a safe path and certainly prudent...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenere View Post
Voltage at the starter was 12.8 and 10.8 at the small wire when cranking. These were made with the engine cold, with the old battery. Car started with these numbers when cold.
And there's the clue we're looking for. The small wire is the starter solenoid. For the starter to engage, the solenoid must function and you should see full battery voltage there. So, take a look-see behind the passenger seat (as I recall) for the starter relay. This is what is triggered when the key is in the start position. I'd start by measuring the voltage drop across the relay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenere View Post
I've spoken with a couple of Ferrari techs that I am friendly with and they are stumped. They all said that they had never seen a 360 or CS with this issue.
I've never seen this issue either, but that doesn't mitigate the possibility of a problem in a reasonably simple circuit. The 10.8 volts on the solenoid a great clue to start with. Find out why and the hot soak problem will be resolved.

Best,
David

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post #11 of 26 Old 06-01-2015, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
OK-This tells us that it is a starter circuit problem.

Probably a safe path and certainly prudent...


And there's the clue we're looking for. The small wire is the starter solenoid. For the starter to engage, the solenoid must function and you should see full battery voltage there. So, take a look-see behind the passenger seat (as I recall) for the starter relay. This is what is triggered when the key is in the start position. I'd start by measuring the voltage drop across the relay.

I've never seen this issue either, but that doesn't mitigate the possibility of a problem in a reasonably simple circuit. The 10.8 volts on the solenoid a great clue to start with. Find out why and the hot soak problem will be resolved.

Best,
David
David:

Thanks for getting back with me. Do you have any idea what the voltage should be at that relay? Is there an acceptable drop from one side of the relay to another?

Might it be prudent to replace that relay?

Ciao

Dino
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post #12 of 26 Old 06-02-2015, 06:41 AM
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For all practical purposes,. the voltage drop should be pretty much zero...Anything much more than 50mv would tend to indicate that the high current contacts are burned, which would certainly warrant replacement of the relay.

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post #13 of 26 Old 06-07-2015, 06:59 AM
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Guys,

If you ever need to replace the starter micro relay behind the driver's seat (PN 172882) consider using TE Connectivity relay 2-1414971-4. Only about $5.00 each and available from on-line distributors.

In the sake of full disclosure, I am a TE Connectivity engineer but not with the relays group.

Cheers,

Jeff
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post #14 of 26 Old 06-07-2015, 08:17 AM
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Please also check the grounding points. I had a vehicle where the ground cable had issues when hot. To prove such my mechanic rigged up an extended ground cable from the negative side of the battery to the starter. No more hot start problems.
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post #15 of 26 Old 06-07-2015, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
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Relay replaced!

I'll take some readings and go driving! Hopefully I won't have to pose with the car for 30 mins while it cools down!

Ciao

Dino
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post #16 of 26 Old 06-08-2015, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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I couldn't find the relay locally. So, I swapped the windshield wiper and the starter as they are the same part and voila! After taking the car out and ran it hard for a good 40 minutes, it started right up, even after letting it sit for a few minutes and heat soak. I'll order new parts now.

I didn't get the belly pan off to take readings. I'll do that the next time I'm under there.

Thanks Dave for pointing me in the right direction.

Where can I find the TE Connectivity relay?

Ciao

Dino
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post #17 of 26 Old 06-09-2015, 01:57 AM
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You're welcome. Electrical issues can be a bit daunting at times. But the clues, however subtle, are usually there....If you Google the TE number provided, a few vendors pop up.

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post #18 of 26 Old 06-11-2015, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David @ FluentInFerrari View Post
You're welcome. Electrical issues can be a bit daunting at times. But the clues, however subtle, are usually there....If you Google the TE number provided, a few vendors pop up.
Electrical challenges have always been a....... challenge for me!

Ciao

Dino
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post #19 of 26 Old 06-11-2015, 04:59 PM
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Fixed? Good to go?

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post #20 of 26 Old 06-12-2015, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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So far, so good.

I'm still trying to find the TE relay for sale. I sent an email to the company and awaiting a reply. But the car seems to have kicked its 'hot start' problem... for now!

Ciao

Dino
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