F430 T/O Bearing failure on MT - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 40 Old 07-06-2014, 08:29 AM Thread Starter
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T/O Bearing failure on MT

When yesterday, I was driving the car at cruising legal speed, I noticed suddenly a high pitch sound when down shifting. I knew immediately that something serious was wrong and stopped the car. Started the car again, and when depressing the clutch, the strong whine appeared immediately. Fortunately, I wasn't too far from home and made my way home trying to shift as least as possible. The engine stalled very easily in first gear and it was hard to take her off. Although, in other gears, the clutch itself was behaving normally with the usual strong bite. When driving back home, the noise got present all time even when I wasn't depressing the clutch.

Once home, I checked the brake fluid level and was expecting the tank to be empty but level was normal.

Car has 60.000 km. This really sounds like a throw out bearing failure but I'm surprised that there is no brake fluid leak. I made a short video where you can easily hear the high pitch squeal. What do you guys think?

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post #2 of 40 Old 07-06-2014, 08:28 PM
 
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Sounds like the thrust bearing has run dry.
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post #3 of 40 Old 07-07-2014, 10:04 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks racecomp, this makes sense.

While we need to get the transmission out, I'll change also the engine mounts and transmission mount. For those who need the detailed info on the parts pre-fitted on the HE T/O bearing and flange, here are the details:

Name:  Clutch details HE TO Bearing parts.jpg
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CRB-430-MS is for manual transmission while CRB-430-F1S is for the F1 transmission.
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post #4 of 40 Old 07-07-2014, 01:16 PM
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Sorry to hear of your woes Stef. How many miles does the bearing have? Am I reading it correctly that you are planning to change the flywheel as well?
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post #5 of 40 Old 07-07-2014, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Aldous. The bearing has about 45.000 km I think. Not bad but not too great neither even if we know that this part is spinning non-stop. No doubt that the HE T/O with SFK bearings used for aircrafts (History of the Stonehouse factory), will be of much higher quality.

I will change everything indeed, including the flywheel. On itself, it doesn't cost that much compared to the rest and I want my transmission to be in top condition, especially where with a manual, you're much more "connected" to it.
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post #6 of 40 Old 07-08-2014, 12:24 AM
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Great stuff - I'm looking forward to your updates.
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post #7 of 40 Old 07-09-2014, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Received already today the HE T/O bearing, flange and hydraulic bloc. The quality of the parts is truly impressive, a master piece of engineering and manufacturing! It's almost a shame to install these parts and never see them again! All parts come with a manufacturing batch number engraved in the aluminium ring.


Will post some detailed pictures soon of the new HE parts as well as the worn/broken parts and the details of the whole process of changing the key parts of the transmission.


The fact that all gaskets are pre-fitted is a real plus and eliminates all risks of damage when fitting them.
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post #8 of 40 Old 07-10-2014, 11:03 AM
 
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Is that TO bearing the same as on the F1 but using the clutch MC to operate it?
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post #9 of 40 Old 07-10-2014, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Alan,
It's pretty much the same as the F1. The F1 version of the T/O bearing has a slight difference as has the magnet for the sensor.
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post #10 of 40 Old 07-10-2014, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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A coupe of detailed pictures of the HE parts. The aluminium housing of the T/O bearing is a real improvement compared to the stock bearing and should keep the bearings greased and clean for a much longer time (well I hope).
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post #11 of 40 Old 07-11-2014, 05:08 AM
 
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Wow -- TO bearings have come a long way from the time I changed out clutches (admittedly that was over 45 years ago) when they were just a roller bearing operated by a fork crank and cable or slave cylinder.
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post #12 of 40 Old 07-11-2014, 08:35 AM
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The bearing is the slave cylinder!

Lovely pics - I'm lucky enough to live close to Hill Engineering and am able to stop by their factory anytime I need parts.
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post #13 of 40 Old 07-11-2014, 09:39 AM
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Stef- Sorry you had all that trouble, but those HE parts look really stout and well made.

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post #14 of 40 Old 07-11-2014, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Aldous and Terry. Actually, I'm even somehow glad the T/O bearing failed as it's a chance to renew the entire transmission up to every single bold, nut, spacer or shim. In a couple of weeks, car should feel great again for quite a while And I'm currently not missing any drives neither as the weather here is non-stop raining since more than a week!


It's great Aldous you live close to HE. It's always nicer to have a direct contact with them and share your impressions. I'm wondering why HE is not making the flywheel. They would for sure make a master piece from it.
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post #15 of 40 Old 07-11-2014, 10:40 AM
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Stef- Paul Hill and I have e-mailed back and forth on a couple of topics and he is really on the ball.

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post #16 of 40 Old 07-12-2014, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StefVan View Post
It's great Aldous you live close to HE. It's always nicer to have a direct contact with them and share your impressions. I'm wondering why HE is not making the flywheel. They would for sure make a master piece from it.
I'm due to visit HE as soon as I get some free time - I will ask about the flywheel for you.
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post #17 of 40 Old 07-15-2014, 12:39 PM
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The flywheel is already light and dureable. There are companies like MD clutches; Home that reclaim and refinish clutches to an amazing standard..
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post #18 of 40 Old 07-18-2014, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Some feedback of what exactly failed now that the gearbox is removed. Well, the T/O bearing totally seized and seriously overheated the entire clutch area. It broke off several fingers of the pressure blade, even if these fingers are made of quite thick steel. The flywheel was also in very bad condition with several burn spots on it.

Amazingly, after so many km on the same clutch, the external clutch plate was still in good condition. I still need to dismount the clutch assembly to check the condition of the internal clutch. So the myth that our cars are clutch eaters is not really true. This dual plate clutch can really last much longer if driven correctly. Sure, a MT helps to better control the clutch. If the T/O bearing didnít fail, I think that I still had a good life time on this clutch. But no doubt, while the transmission is out, Iím changing all components including every single bolt, spacer or shim. Changing also the hydraulic links as well as the flywheel bearing (which was amazingly still in perfect visual condition). The gearbox mount was also in good condition but changed it as a precaution. I still had the MKII of this mount while now, the MKIII is available.


The lesson learned is that when a T/O bearing is failing (seized), in extreme conditions, there is a potential risk that the engine intake valves hit the piston heads because the T/O bearing can end up blocking the engine crankshaft. This has already happened. So when you hear the noise like in my video, donít do what I did, trying to drive back home


Some pictures to document this subject:
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post #19 of 40 Old 07-18-2014, 02:38 PM
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Stef- That is some really nasty looking damage. Glad the engine, except for the flywheel, was not hurt. Any theories on why the T/O bearing failed?

Taz
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post #20 of 40 Old 07-18-2014, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Terry, the weakness are the thrust bearing balls. They broke apart and made the whole part seizing. It thought this was maybe an exceptional situation but for having discussed this quite a bit with different techs, it is not that uncommon. Ferrari is aware of this weakness but nothing has really been done and dealers don't like too much to talk about this. The thing is that it is totally unpredictable. I thought I had the T/O bearing has ran dry (as racecomp posted) but quickly realized from the strong smell and smoke that it was something more serious. I trust that the SFK bearing balls of HE T/O bearing will be of much higher quality and reliability.
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