360 F1 pump replacement - Ferrari Life
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 52 Old 10-15-2013, 01:47 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NW England
Ferrari Life Posts: 42
F1 pump replacement

Hi,

The F1 pump on my 2000 F1 Modena is original and a bit tired. Perhaps it takes 10 to 12 seconds to prime the system from cold and it sounds a bit lazy compared to others, so I want to change it for the Alfa part.

I've read you can do this without an SD 2 as it is self bleeding but cannot find any procedure or thread where it has been done. I can only find Juri's change using a power supply to the pump which I don't want to try especially if I don't need to,

I've looked at the WSM drawing of the hydraulic circuit it is is pretty straighforward but would like to understand what happens to the air in the pump body when you first power it up and if there is any procedure to follow.
One thought was to allow it to prime, swap the pump out and leave overnight before running, to allow the fluid that flows back to the reservoir as it depressurises push some of the air back into the reservoir. Maybe the valve block has bleeds built in.

The WSM does not cover a pump change, only the whole valve block.

If it does need an SD it can wait until the next visit to my tech next spring.

Thanks .......M
Mike01606 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 52 Old 10-15-2013, 02:34 PM
Master Mechanic
 
ECSofVirginia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,219
It will be largely beneficial to have the F1 system fully serviced. If the pump has degraded enough that you're concerned yet a technician hasn't recommended replacement, I can assume it has been a while since the car has been to the specialist for evaluation. This may be a good excuse to have the car looked over, get the pump replaced, check the pressure lines, check the actuator and flush the system completely.

I would also recommend replacing the pump control relay at the same time. It's cheap insurance and if you ignore it, it's sure to fail in the most inopportune moment.


ECSofVirginia is offline  
post #3 of 52 Old 10-15-2013, 02:52 PM
Owner
 
BluNart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New England, USA
Ferrari Life Posts: 479
+1

And if you're servicing at a dealer network with a Maserati showroom or independent that will install nonFerrari parts there is a comparable F1 pump part too that can save you some coin (I'm guessing why you're selecting Alfa?).

Ferrari: 2001 360 Modena Coupe
Other: 2004 C5 Coupe
BluNart is offline  
 
post #4 of 52 Old 10-15-2013, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NW England
Ferrari Life Posts: 42
Josh,

Thanks for the reply.

The car had a full 31250 at a specialist last week and I was discussing with the technician the work I would like to do over the next couple of years. I want to work through the preventative maintenance items as the car is a keeper. That is where the pump was raised. As it stands it will go back in the spring for its MOT test and I was going to ask him to change it and bleed the system then.

I like working on the car and I'm a qualified engineer so I was also looking at winter projects and trying to see if it is an easy change and add it to my list. I'd then ask the tech to flush the system properly in the spring. I've drawn out and replaced the fluid in the tank several times. I know it doesn't bleed the full system but it will work it's way in to a point.

Wrt to the F1 system, it is in good shape. No minor leaks and no changing issues at all. I replaced the F1 relay and base last weekend for the updated 50A version.

It's not about cost cutting, it is a genuine passion for the cars and trying to do what I can whilst leaving the real work for the experts. That is why I'm asking if it is possible. Any risk of filling the system with air that then needs a flat bed the to shop, then I wouldn't even attempt it.

Thanks........M
Mike01606 is offline  
post #5 of 52 Old 10-15-2013, 08:40 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,846
Mike- You can change the motor without bleeding, but replacing the pump cracks the system open and you would need to bleed it. Juri sells a motor alone that will fit to your old pump head without opening the system. He has a video on how to do it.

Note that Ferrari keeps learning on the F1 systems. Early F1 systems call for just monitoring F1 fluid level and never actually changing the fluid. Not a great idea, like Josh said, like 15 year old power steering fluid. By the time the 599 came out, Ferrari was recommending changing the fluid and bleeding the system every three years. Not a bad idea for us, either.
Attached Images
   

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is online now  
post #6 of 52 Old 10-15-2013, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NW England
Ferrari Life Posts: 42
Thanks Terry,

I want to replace the pump body also as after 13 years it would be wise and the internals must wear. I'd also be buying a full pump to not use part of it..

I've read that the pump self bleeds (on Ferrari and some Maser forums) but want to be definitively sure. If so it will be an hours work to drain the tank, two pipe connections, remove the pump then put the new one in.

I just don't want to end up stuck!

M
Mike01606 is offline  
post #7 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 09:40 AM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
How does the SD2 bleed the system?

I guess what I'm really trying to understand is that presumably the SD2 runs the pump and maybe shifts through the gears. What would prevent an owner from throwing the car on the lift (or jackstands) and doing the same thing with the paddles?
bretm is offline  
post #8 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 09:43 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,846
Bret- The F1 system can be bled without an SD, but it is very time consuming. I think Brian's take on it was you were wasting the customer's money doing it that way because of all the extra billed hours. But if your tech does not have an SD or equivalent......

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is online now  
post #9 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 09:49 AM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
Bret- The F1 system can be bled without an SD, but it is very time consuming...
Ahhh, makes sense. I suppose for a winter project, that might not be the end of the world.
bretm is offline  
post #10 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 09:56 AM
Owner
 
Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike01606 View Post
Thanks Terry,

I want to replace the pump body also as after 13 years it would be wise and the internals must wear. I'd also be buying a full pump to not use part of it..

I've read that the pump self bleeds (on Ferrari and some Maser forums) but want to be definitively sure. If so it will be an hours work to drain the tank, two pipe connections, remove the pump then put the new one in.

I just don't want to end up stuck!

M


The pump does NOT self bleed.

Those that say they do are idiots.

It is no different than installing a new brake master cylinder. You can pour fluid in it and pump the pedal and you will have brakes but they will not work well. No different with the pump.
Brian is offline  
post #11 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 10:11 AM
Owner
 
Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin Texas
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,833
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
How does the SD2 bleed the system?

I guess what I'm really trying to understand is that presumably the SD2 runs the pump and maybe shifts through the gears. What would prevent an owner from throwing the car on the lift (or jackstands) and doing the same thing with the paddles?

The hydraulic circuits are dead end circuits. You need to remove the actuator and open a series of passages to allow those circuits to recycle their contents back to the reservoir in much the same way you open a bleed screw on a brake caliper. Then the SD is used to operate the pump and cycle through opening and closing all the circuits in proper order purging the air.

I suppose it would be possible to effect some level of air removal another way but it is hard to imagine, given the circuitry and internal design of the actuator to get total removal of the air any other way. Again, like brakes it will work with some air in the system but how well?

This is like cam timing and slow down lights. We hear stories of F1 troubles all the time and it is written off as system reliability issues when in fact we have about 16 years worth of poor quality repairs, work arounds and other poorly performed or thought out repair procedures with many of these cars.

It is really easy to tell when one of these cars has not seen properly performed repairs by either shops or do it yourselfers and I typically turn them around at the door. I also steer my clients away. Just too much to undo and life is too short.
Brian is offline  
post #12 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
Owner
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NW England
Ferrari Life Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
The pump does NOT self bleed.

Those that say they do are idiots.

It is no different than installing a new brake master cylinder. You can pour fluid in it and pump the pedal and you will have brakes but they will not work well. No different with the pump.
Thanks Brian,

That is pretty definitive! At least I didn't walk into your shop quoting I'd read it on the internet


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
The hydraulic circuits are dead end circuits. You need to remove the actuator and open a series of passages to allow those circuits to recycle their contents back to the reservoir in much the same way you open a bleed screw on a brake caliper. Then the SD is used to operate the pump and cycle through opening and closing all the circuits in proper order purging the air.
.......and a DIYer would not be able to refit and align the actuator?

It shall wait until the spring and the next garage visit.....if it had been easy, I'd have expected it to have been done more often. I'll stick to polishing....

Last edited by Mike01606; 10-16-2013 at 10:42 AM.
Mike01606 is offline  
post #13 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 10:56 AM
Master Mechanic
 
ECSofVirginia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,219
There are specific tools to check the actuator lever alignment and the only way to calibrate it to the TCU with the actuator is with the diagnostic computer which has an actuator centering function and a "self learn" function which dry shifts the transmission and allows the TCU to learn the motions of the actuator.

A proper bleeding of the complete system, followed with a PIS adjustment check and an actuator calibration procedure is the best way to address servicing of the system. All of these procedures require a diagnostic tool.

If you were to do any of this and remove/reinstall the actuator without having the tool to calibrate it afterwards, it may work poorly however it may also not work at all resulting in a tow to the workshop in which case you will probably be charged for the work to be performed a second time start to finish.


ECSofVirginia is offline  
post #14 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 12:04 PM
Owner
 
bretm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: New Jersey
Ferrari Life Posts: 2,152
Interesting stuff. As always, thanks for the insight guys!
bretm is offline  
post #15 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
Owner
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NW England
Ferrari Life Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by bretm View Post
Interesting stuff. As always, thanks for the insight guys!
+1 Thank-you.........
Mike01606 is offline  
post #16 of 52 Old 10-16-2013, 08:02 PM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,846
Funny thing. I just looked at those maintenance sheets and even on the 599, Ferrari still does not recommend a coolant change interval. That is bordering on criminal considering what happens to aluminum parts when the corrosion inhibitors wear out.

Had Jan's GL 550 serviced the other day and asked if that service included a coolant flush and refill. Service manager said no, it was 10 year coolant. I told him there was no such thing as 10 year coolant and had him change it. Had to take it back and have it topped off after driving home (~1 mile), so apparently the techs do not change coolant and bleed the cooling system too often.

Are all these manufacturers trying for planned engine obsolescence or what?

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is online now  
post #17 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 08:00 AM
 
ECGdavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Wales, Pa.
Ferrari Life Posts: 9
All manufacturers recommended maintence standards should be considered as a minimum standard as they are seen as a marketing tool when buyers are calculating cost of ownership.
ECGdavid is offline  
post #18 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 10:02 AM
Owner
Elite Member
 
tazandjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Ferrari Life Posts: 11,846
David- Do not believe that in the slightest based on everything else Ferrari wants done. No excuse for not recommending changing coolant regularly. We are seeing the probems that causes big time on the early 65 degree V12s with radiators not working well from deposits, hoses clogging, and even cylinder liner burn through. All of which would have been ameliorated by regular coolant changes not called for in the maintenance schedules.

Taz
Terry Phillips

Present: 575M 135171
Past: Dino 246 GT 02984, 365 GTB/4 14009, 308 GTS 25125

Every day I look around, and if nobody is shooting at me, it is a pretty good day.
tazandjan is online now  
post #19 of 52 Old 10-17-2013, 10:40 AM
Master Mechanic
 
ECSofVirginia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Ferrari Life Posts: 1,219
Our interpretation of "lifetime" is not the same as the accountants at the auto manufacturers. Some us take that literal, they see it as long enough to get the car through warranty and then it becomes disposable and not their problem, encouraging the market to buy new models not repair old ones.


ECSofVirginia is offline  
post #20 of 52 Old 10-19-2013, 03:41 AM
 
ECGdavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Wales, Pa.
Ferrari Life Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
David- Do not believe that in the slightest based on everything else Ferrari wants done. No excuse for not recommending changing coolant regularly. We are seeing the probems that causes big time on the early 65 degree V12s with radiators not working well from deposits, hoses clogging, and even cylinder liner burn through. All of which would have been ameliorated by regular coolant changes not called for in the maintenance schedules.
Taz,

I do not negate the fact that Ferrari as well as others overlook the issues caused by lack of coolant changes. I agree that the early coolant is very corrosive and have seen the effects .

Having experienced 15+ years of service with Toyota and their "Super Long Life " coolant. We have opened up motors at 6-7 years of age and 150k miles with no issues. Their interval is 100K for severe service.

Is it possible that the damage is more related to cars that don't get driven regularly allowing the corrosive elements and sediment to coagulate in areas causing damage. It would be interesting to compare the effects of the coolant on a higher mileage V12 and the same lower mileage garage queen !

Any yes, maybe not Ferrari and maybe not so much in the exotic/super car world does the "Overall cost of maintenance" come into play. It becomes a marketing strategy for everyone else. For example if we look at the 3 year warranty period on the sales end and tell our client the estimated maintenance cost is $16,000 for a 458 and we go to Lamborghini and the Gallardo's maintenance cost is $6000 over 3 years. And you are trying to decide on models. Which would you choose ?

David
ECGdavid is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome
Copyright 2012 ONE Media, Inc.
FerrariLife is independently run with no affiliation with Ferrari SpA
Ferrari for Sale | Maserati for Sale