360 Transmission and differential problem - Ferrari Life
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post #1 of 22 Old 07-26-2013, 05:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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Transmission and differential problem

Hi guys,i'm new here,so let me introduce myself.I'm Sergio from Greece and i have a 360 modena f1.Last week i took her for a ride and the car didn't feel the same.From stand,when i tried to go,it gave me the sence that something was braking the car,like i had the handbrake on.When reaching about 10mph and lift the gas pedal it made a sound like metals being hit together and the ride was very strange.It waas like the clutch didn't work well.So i took her to the service.The ''metal'' sound was from the engine mounts,so i replaced them all.But......She has a problem in the differential,and we took the whole transmition box out.The problem lies in some disc in the differential and Ferrari doesn't sell them individually.There is also a problem in the synchroniser of the first gear.So.....Ferrari wants about 16K Euros for a new gear box and if i deside to keep my gear box,i have to change all the synchronisers,all the discs of the differential and all the bearings of the gearbox.I found a whole gearbox from another 360 that has about 25K miles in it.And here comes the questions....What should i do?
1-I try the used gearbox,and if it is working well i keep it...But will it be trustworthy?
2-Are there any OEM parts cheaper than the original from Ferrari so i can fix my own gearbox?
3-Are there any other members that had the same problem?What may caused it?How you fixed it?
I can't stand to see her teared apart and i want my car to work well again,but i try to find the best solution..Please help!Cheers!
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post #2 of 22 Old 07-26-2013, 04:45 PM
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Transmission problems are common enough on the 360 that good used transmissions are rare. I had a client that decided to go that way. I inspected 4 bad ones and the 5th he chose to use. It was very noisy.

Installing a used transmission gives you a low probability of success.


The transmission is a proprietary part for Ferrari and the company that builds it has a contract that forbids them from selling parts to anyone but Ferrari. Internal parts are expensive and a number of special tools are required to repair them. If you are properly equipped they are not hard to repair.


I have no idea what discs you speak of. If you mean the positraction clutches they are the same as all the other Ferraris and Porsche 911 series.

Last edited by Brian; 07-26-2013 at 04:56 PM.
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post #3 of 22 Old 07-26-2013, 07:12 PM
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I agree with Brian, rebuilding your existing box with original parts is the best way. As he stated, I've also seen a few fail and with the age and mileage on anything you will find, ring and pinion whine is almost guaranteed and you're lucky if that's the only issue.

Have it rebuilt by someone that knows what they're doing. You don't want someone learning how to rebuild this transmission on your dime.


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post #4 of 22 Old 07-26-2013, 09:36 PM
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Brian, Josh, et al, ...I just wanted to express my feeling and say publicly that you guys ( and I mean pros) are simply wonderful !

If I were nearby anyone of you guys, you would be hounded by an owner like myself.

w/ smiles

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post #5 of 22 Old 07-27-2013, 01:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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I have the same feeling about the used box...But i have the opportunity to try it first and then pay for it...If it is noisy or it doesn't have a good feeling overall,i will not buy it...Yes,i mean the positraction clutches,i didn't know how they were named in English...I didn't know that they are the same,thank you for the info...I think i will try the used box first and if i am lucky enough,then well..Also,i think i can combine the best of the 2 boxes...What do you think?
Thank you guys for the answers and also,thanks in advance for the next replies!
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post #6 of 22 Old 07-27-2013, 11:26 AM
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Sergio- If the labor does not cost you anything, that is one way to go. Like the pros said, though, why not fix it once correctly, maintain it properly by changing fluid at least every other year, maybe annually, and not have to worry about it?

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post #7 of 22 Old 07-27-2013, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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Taz,my car gets serviced more often than Ferrari suggests
I think that this problem occured because of a radiator fail...The radiator that cools the gearbox fluids broke and most of the engine water-coolant mixed with it....Fortunately(we thought at the beggining)this happened on my way to the store and i drove the car like that for approximately 2-3 miles.We changed the radiator,we changed gearbox fluids and engine coolant 6 times(!),we cleaned the whole system and then i went on a trip...After that,there is the differential-gearbox problem....My mechanic said that inside the differential,he found something like emulsion(comes from the mixing of water and the gearbox fluids)and maybe caused an overheating and made the positraction clutches to warp...The thing is that i don't have the car only for weekend drives.I also race it in closed circuits.And i want to keep doing that.Apart from the gearbox(the latest issue)the whole car is brand new if we consider the attention and servicing i give to her,and i want to keep her in pristine condition...I wanted for example to visit Monza,Nurburgring and Spa-Francorchamps in September,but now i don't know.....Can i trust it?
For your entertainment watch a lap in the best circuit in Greece:
Ferrari 360 Modena-Serres Racing Circuit - YouTube
Cheers!
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post #8 of 22 Old 07-27-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergio360 View Post
Taz,my car gets serviced more often than Ferrari suggests
I think that this problem occured because of a radiator fail...The radiator that cools the gearbox fluids broke and most of the engine water-coolant mixed with it....Fortunately(we thought at the beggining)this happened on my way to the store and i drove the car like that for approximately 2-3 miles.We changed the radiator,we changed gearbox fluids and engine coolant 6 times(!),we cleaned the whole system and then i went on a trip...After that,there is the differential-gearbox problem....My mechanic said that inside the differential,he found something like emulsion(comes from the mixing of water and the gearbox fluids)and maybe caused an overheating and made the positraction clutches to warp...The thing is that i don't have the car only for weekend drives.I also race it in closed circuits.And i want to keep doing that.Apart from the gearbox(the latest issue)the whole car is brand new if we consider the attention and servicing i give to her,and i want to keep her in pristine condition...I wanted for example to visit Monza,Nurburgring and Spa-Francorchamps in September,but now i don't know.....Can i trust it?
For your entertainment watch a lap in the best circuit in Greece:
Ferrari 360 Modena-Serres Racing Circuit - YouTube
Cheers!


If you have no noise from the ring and pinion the fix is easy. Just add a large dose of limited slip additive like the product offered by General Motors or Redline. That will make the noise go away. It might take a couple of hundred miles but it will go away. The posi clutches do not warp, their pourous surface just absorbs the water. Worst case is to replace the clutch plates. T Rutlands sells them and they can easily be changed without removal of the transmission.


Sorry to say but you need a better mechanic. The actions taken and the advice given suggests he is groping in the dark.


As far as the intercooler failure goes, the trans oil and the coolant need to both be changed annually (or more often depending on usage). The interior of the failed intercoolers all show signs of lack of maintenance. None of us in the beginning really understood how often fluid changes really needed to be done in those. And Ferrari still doesn't.

Last edited by Brian; 07-27-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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post #9 of 22 Old 07-27-2013, 12:42 PM
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While the diff is out and everything is apart make sure the output flanges are removed and inspected maybe even mag-particle tested for cracking, before reassembly begins. Since you do a lot of tracking with your car, that is a point of concern, particularly the LH shaft. The new replacement shaft is of an updated design and is stronger.


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post #10 of 22 Old 07-28-2013, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
 
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Brian i change the trans oil and the coolant every 9 months or so...And in these months i drive only 1000Km let's say...I don't think it is a matter of lack of maintenance...The intercooler failure is very common here in Greece maybe due to the high temperatures...
ECSofVirginia,yes,all the flanges will be replaced...We also checked the driveshafts and they are good,so ok....
Keeps spinning on my mind to order the clutch plates,replace them and see what happens...My box is really good(without noises etc)except the diff thing,and i don't want to end with another one that is worse.Anyway,thank you guys,in monday i will have news and i will post here..
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post #11 of 22 Old 07-28-2013, 07:53 AM
 
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Many of the parts inside the 360/430 box are the same as Maserati 4200. The case is different for obvious reasons. Manufacturer is Oerlikon Graziano in Italy. Rgds/Thomas
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post #12 of 22 Old 07-28-2013, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thank you Thomas!!!!Very helpfull!!!!
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post #13 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 01:38 AM Thread Starter
 
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Ok guys,i think i have good news..The new box is on...I tested the car and i think i am satisfied...No strange noises from the box,the problem when you start to roll or reverse is gone and the gearchange is smoother.Apparently my synchros were worse than i thought...If i am lucky it will continue to work properly.
I will add this limited slip additive as Brian mentioned,just in case of noise that occurs later.
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post #14 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 10:42 AM
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Sergio- Only add a very small amount or you will inhibit synchronizer operation, which relies on friction to work. Too much and too slippery and you will get graunches when shifting.

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post #15 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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Ok Taz,i will keep it in mind!
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post #16 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
I agree with Brian, rebuilding your existing box with original parts is the best way. As he stated, I've also seen a few fail and with the age and mileage on anything you will find, ring and pinion whine is almost guaranteed and you're lucky if that's the only issue.

Have it rebuilt by someone that knows what they're doing. You don't want someone learning how to rebuild this transmission on your dime.
What causes ring and pinion whine?

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post #17 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 02:12 PM
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In short, uneven loading on the teeth of the ring gear and pinion gear. The teeth are sculpted and need to mesh together evenly, as they wear the contact patch becomes uneven and the loading of the teeth create noise.


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post #18 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
In short, uneven loading on the teeth of the ring gear and pinion gear. The teeth are sculpted and need to mesh together evenly, as they wear the contact patch becomes uneven and the loading of the teeth create noise.
My Scuderia I bought has a whistle noise, under light throttle, lift off throttle, and noise goes away. At first thought previous owner has BMC filters on the car. Car has 10k miles on it. Also have a valve switch installed for the factory muffler. Any guesses on what might be causing noise? Sounds a little like a dog gearbox? Only happens when under load.

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post #19 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 03:11 PM
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Noises translate differently for some people, I would need to be in the car and hear it for myself to know for certain. A whistle from a non-baffled high flow intake is a very different sound than a "whine" from a differential, roots type blower, OHV camshaft gear drive, or straight cut gears in a race type transmission, like you describe later.

You describe two different sounds to me. One is intake air moving across the throttle plate and light throttle. The other may be considered a normal mechanical sound from the transaxle. The Scud is much harsher car than the standard road cars. I would need to hear it for myself under the appropriate conditions and probably run a fluid sample to see what the contaminate levels are as well.


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post #20 of 22 Old 07-30-2013, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSofVirginia View Post
Noises translate differently for some people, I would need to be in the car and hear it for myself to know for certain. A whistle from a non-baffled high flow intake is a very different sound than a "whine" from a differential, roots type blower, OHV camshaft gear drive, or straight cut gears in a race type transmission, like you describe later.

You describe two different sounds to me. One is intake air moving across the throttle plate and light throttle. The other may be considered a normal mechanical sound from the transaxle. The Scud is much harsher car than the standard road cars. I would need to hear it for myself under the appropriate conditions and probably run a fluid sample to see what the contaminate levels are as well.
I will make a video, thanks.

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