360 Price Variations in 360's - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 12 Old 02-13-2013, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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Price Variations in 360's

I admit I'm new to the world of Ferrari re-sales, but I am boggled by the price disparities I'm seeing, and there seems to be no rhyme or reason to explain them. Is there really a justification for a $20,000 gap between two cars of the same year with similar mileage due to one being Rosso and the other being Grigio? Do the dealers (Ferrari or other) all just get to a point with older models and set their price at 99,000 without regard to the car? Sometimes the F1 seems to be priced higher, and sometimes the manual seems to be at a premium. Yet I saw a 04 Rosso/Beige Spider F1 with 9k miles for $112,000, and an '02 Rosso/Black Spider F1 with 4,500 miles for $95,900 from the same seller. Huh? I know that other things factor into it, and such low miles on an eleven year old car isn't necessarily a good thing, but do they just pick these prices out of the sky? How do you know what's a fair price? (other than the comment that it's fair if someone is willing to pay it).
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post #2 of 12 Old 02-13-2013, 09:48 AM
 
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i hear you

I too have witnessed what you are describiing but not just with 360's. the f430 is more of the same. I think it all comes down to the dealer wanting the most possible and they probbaly pull it out of the sky like you said. It all comes down to if the buyer will pay. If not, the cars sit on the lots and prices come down. check out cargurus.com and you will see this onthe pricing history (great site). Or the cars get sold but dealers don't disclose that the sale was actually wholesaled to another dealer who might put a more reasonable priceon the same car and actually sell it. Good luck!
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post #3 of 12 Old 02-13-2013, 09:50 AM
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Steve- In many cases it is determined by how much they have in the car. If you look at any other upscale brand, like Porsche, you will see the same thing. Plus there is often a big difference between asked price and sold for price.

Taz
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post #4 of 12 Old 02-13-2013, 11:04 AM
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This thread sort of opens up a can of worms. Those of us in the market lately have seen pretty wide ranges of prices (I am tracking 360's personally). It has gotten to the point where there seems to be very little logic in the pricing. I've developed tables, spreadsheets, etc. linking color, mileage, condition, number of owners, etc. It's crazy. I'm trying to get better at predicting the prices, but then some outliers pop up which makes the whole model go crazy.
Bottom line, RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. Then, RESEARCH some more. You need to know exactly what you want from the car (i.e. which colors, options, services) are non-negotiable, and which other aspects can have some personal leeway? Once you know those things, start looking hard and eliminating cars. You'll quickly find that, more than likely, fewer cars will meet your requirements, so choices are limited. So, when you see a good car at a decent asking price, go forward with the PPI (pre-purchase inspection). Make the sale contingent upon any PPI findings.
That's the brief explanation. I swear, some of us could write a "War and Peace" like volume on this process.

To Terry's point, "asking" price is just asking price. If the seller has an unreasonable price, and doesn't negotiate much, their car is going to sit, and sit and sit. Other cars which are priced right move FAST!

PS: I believe you've referred to two Red 360 Spider's on Marshall Goldman's lot in Cleveland. I have noticed the same cars.
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post #5 of 12 Old 02-13-2013, 04:26 PM
 
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I wonder if some of the variation has to do with the cars being on consignment? I bet dealers have these cars in the showroom for an owner that says "I want x amount for the car, or I won't sell". Then the dealer has to add for their profit as well. So if an owner is happy with 75k, then the dealer will list it at 85k. But if an owner says "I want 90k", and the car may be worth 90k, but the dealer needs to sell at 105k now.
Who knows. I can tell you that cars with higher mileage seem to have a tighter price group though. I think owners with Lower mileage want to get a premium for their cars, and the premium that they feel is fair, seems to be all over the place.
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post #6 of 12 Old 02-13-2013, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
 
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I don't think the variation has as much to do with what the dealer has in on the car as so many of the non-independent dealers are pricing at $99,900. And I was told that Ohio dealers can't take cars on consignment--and the place I was referencing is in Ohio. (Raj--yes, it was MG). Honestly, I think they operate under the assumption that there is a certain group out there that a) won't research and b) will think the car is "better" if it is priced higher.
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post #7 of 12 Old 02-14-2013, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smster21 View Post
Honestly, I think they operate under the assumption that there is a certain group out there that a) won't research and b) will think the car is "better" if it is priced higher.
That's all well and good, but buyers will only pay what buyers are going to pay. Dealers may ask whatever they want (thanks MarkJayW). Terry made a good point a while ago that basically said a lot of Ferrari drivers look at it as "just another car," and not as something special with which to form a bond. If it's basic transportation, then who cares about the price. These people also have a lot more money than me, so they can afford to take such actions. To put it in perspective, you probably wouldn't EXTENSIVELY research the purchase of a Toyota Camry, right? But the dudes over on the Dodge Neon forum have to look at those cars and prices REALLY carefully.
The Ferrari "enthusiast" community knows pretty well where a car should be priced. Unless it's absolutely drop dead the perfect car, you've got to think with your head and not with your heart. More specifically, think with your head wrapped around your wallet, I guess. If you grossly overpay for any reason other than the car being absolutely perfect in every way (i.e. your emotions go crazy and trump your brain), then the "enthusiast" community will tell you you're wrong. But, it's your money, and different strokes for different folks. And, there's an ass for every seat, right?

Case in point, there's a Red/Tan 360 Spider F1 for sale on Autotrader currently. It has been for sale for a very long time (because, IMHO it has some pretty nasty customization), and was priced around $99k forever. Then, to show his sense of humor, the seller changed the price...... Get ready:
$5,000,000.
I thought it was hilarious - I wanted to contact the seller (a dealer!!!) and compliment him on his sense of humor. There is no way it was a typo. It sat like that for 2 weeks. Now, the dealer has revised the price back down to around $89k. Did he take a $4M plus hit? Probably not. Made me laugh...

There was a thread recently on FChat where the OP asked if anyone would / had paid "asking price" for their F-car. Many, many people said YES. Their reasoning was various, but it came back to the "reasonable" factor of the asking price. If the asking price is reasonable, it will go. But, so many sellers are unreasonable about asking prices. The more expensive of the two MG cars you mentioned would be PERFECT for me. But, am I gonna call and start negotiating a deal with them? Not likely, because they have it priced so unreasonably that we're not even in the same ballpark. So, I'd rather not waste my time.
Here's the FChat Thread:
Paying Asking Price For A 360/430? - FerrariChat.com

Anyway, we can offer all the speculation we want on this subject. The bottom line is: reasonably priced cars go fast. Unreasonably priced cars sit for months / years.
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post #8 of 12 Old 02-14-2013, 09:35 AM
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You can research for years, you can set your minimum requirement for the car to the point that only a few cars in the world match it, but in the end all you are doing is depriving yourself of driving the greatest car on the road.

I make less money than most people here so I am not one of the rich who can afford to buy a 360 and throw it away a few months later. My 360 is the single most expensive item I have ever purchased. I wanted a Ferrari since high school in the mid-1970's and saved money for first a 246 GTS to replace my FIAT Dino with, then it was a 308 GTS, then a 328 GTS, that is all I wanted a 328 GTS. Early last year I decided it was time to sell the FIAT Dino and finally buy my Ferrari. I looked around at many 328's over the course of a month or so. I made a offer on a 328 $4k below the asking price but $2k to $4k ABOVE what I thought the car was worth because I wanted the color, the owner instead of counter offering put it on ebay. That was the end for me (it finally sold for less then my offer about 5 months later). My wife said lets move up a 360, I think it was Tuesday, Thursday I made the offer on my un-seen 360 and the owner accepted, done I owned a Ferrari (if the car passed PPI, which I ended not doing anyway). My car had been on the market only a few days.

My list was short... NOT Red or Black, prefer stick over F1 but either way would work for me.

I now am upset at the years I kept the Dino instead of selling it and getting a Ferrari, I am upset at the pleasure I lost by not driving a Ferrari all that time and I wish I had done it years earlier. Yeah, if I had done it earlier it would have been a 3x8 since I could not have afforded a 360.

Quote:
The more expensive of the two MG cars you mentioned would be PERFECT for me. But, am I gonna call and start negotiating a deal with them? Not likely, because they have it priced so unreasonably that we're not even in the same ballpark. So, I'd rather not waste my time.
The time it takes to make a offer is what ? maybe 2 minutes on the phone with the qualification that the car has to pass PPI, that is not a waste of time, if you are that far off they will likely tell you to go fly a kite, thank them for their time and remind them of your name and number should they decide to sell the car in the near future and you are done. Its a car dealer, a car dealer has no feelings to hurt, you can't hurt their feelings, so it hurts nothing to spend 2 minutes trying.

These cars like all cars have a price, the range is actually quite small for each year. The dreamers can ask all they want for the car and maybe they will find that elusive sucker but more likely they will eventually come down to the price.

a 99 Modena should be worth $60 to 70K, add $5k for each year after that bringing a 05 Modena to $90 to 100, add $10k for a spider and voila you have your range, anything below that buy it now it wont last long, anything above that is a dreamer. Yes there will be exceptions, there always are. There will also be some details like a 99 with a updated TCU might be worth a few k more than the above rule, some exhausts might add $2k but the range still remains small and fairly fixed. Some prefer lower mileage and will pay a few k more for that, some others prefer a properly used car.

The goal should be get in a drive NOW not in a few years when you finally get around to it.
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post #9 of 12 Old 02-14-2013, 05:18 PM
 
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so why is this 360 on Ferrari Life at $30,000?

Buy & Sell Home Cars 360 Modena Viewing Cars for Sale $30000

I have written to this advertiser three times over several moths and have never received an answer. What's the deal on this $30,000 360?
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post #10 of 12 Old 02-18-2013, 07:57 PM
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I agree, red/tan seems to command a premium over all other colors. Manuals seem to sell fast, but not necessarily for more. Also, there is 6 years between the newest and oldest ( if you exclude the 05 Spider).

It seems that rock bottom is near 70k without high miles or stories and it goes up from there. The good news is there are a lot to choose from, so if you are realistic and patient, you will get what you want.

One thing I thought was interesting is there are usually at least double the amount of 430's on ebay as 360's. I am not sure what that means, but I do see a patern.

Regards

Rich
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post #11 of 12 Old 02-18-2013, 09:48 PM
 
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not just ebay

Rich,

it's across most of the classifieds. compare dupont registry, cars.com and car guru. there are currently waaaay more 430's for sale. as supply goes up, prices come down right? econ 101 right? somehow i don't think exotic cars follow basic econ theories...they seem to run a course of their own. I just had an email exchange with Mike Sheehan and he agrees there is an upswing in prices going on right now.
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post #12 of 12 Old 02-24-2013, 02:21 PM
 
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If you follow the listings for a few months and reach out to new buyers (and sellers) you can get a good feel for where the market is. Even then, there is going to be some variation. A Ferrari dealer or a well know independant like MG is going to get more for their cars than a private seller.

My take is that many asking prices are not realistic. You can always reach out and make an offer, but some cars are effectively not for sale. Cars that are fairly priced do not last long. Cars that are priced lower than market are usually that way for a reason (i.e., accident history).

I think the best thing you can do is to make the call. Doesn't cost anything to ask. I bet the MG guys will tell you why one is priced higher than the other.
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