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-   -   F430 Ceramic brake types: ccb ccm cmc cer pccb.... (https://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/modern-v8s-360-f430/19890-ceramic-brake-types-ccb.html)

johan6504 01-19-2013 05:38 AM

Ceramic brake types: ccb ccm cmc cer pccb....
 
I dindt know there were so many different ceramic brake types. Found this info on Brembo/SGL site.

Portfolio

Carbon Ceramic Brake - CCB
produced in our Meitingen Plant
A floating brake disc made by a core of ceramic material reinforced with carbon fiber and by an additional ceramic layer on both the friction surfaces.
Customer Application
Volkswagen, Porsche, Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti, AMG.

Ceramic Composite Material - CCM
produced in our Stezzano Plant
A floating brake disc composed of carbon fiber in ceramic matrix.
Customer Application
Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Corvette, Nissan, Lexus, Zonda, McLaren.

Ceramic Matrix Composite - CMC
produced in our Stezzano Plant
A floating brake disc of ceramic reinforced material with an additional ceramic layer on both the braking surfaces.
Customer Application
McLaren SLR.

Movit has something called CER
And Porsche is using PCCB, not sure if this is exactly the same as CCB...

Anyone that know the different characteristics of these brakes, pros and cons?

il Capolino 01-19-2013 08:12 AM

Very interesting indeed!

Brings up another question I've tried to get answered by Ferrari: What brake pads apart from stock are compatible with the CCM discs (430 Spider in this case)? Ferrari say I can only use the stock pad but it is crap since it cooks under pressure.

Does anybody know of a pad, perhaps with more carbon it, which takes abuse without cooking itself silly!?

My 430 is a 2008 and I had to spec CCM since at that time they were an option, an expensive option. I thought these brakes would be fade proof but my goodness was I in for a major disappointment!

johan6504 01-19-2013 08:26 AM

I am using PAGID RS19 front and RS29 rear on my Scuderia. Has been woking fine for the last year. 5000 Km 5 trackdays all fine :-)

tazandjan 01-19-2013 08:36 AM

Johan- Mov'It's CERs are of different construction and are solid carbon silicon carbide, the braking surface that is bonded only to the outside of the OEM CCM rotor core. As a consequence, they are much tougher physically and almost impervious to wear, even on the track. A 911 user logged over 3500 track miles with no measureable wear on the CER rotors. He changed front pads once and the rears were only about 50% worn at the end.

Mov'It now makes replacement rotors and pads for OEM Ferrari applications. These cost about the same as CCM rotors and pads, but the rotors last much, much longer.

il Capolino 01-19-2013 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan (Post 231172)
Johan- Mov'It's CERs are of different construction and are solid carbon silicon carbide, the braking surface that is bonded only to the outside of the OEM CCM rotor core. As a consequence, they are much tougher physically and almost impervious to wear, even on the track. A 911 user logged over 3500 track miles with no measureable wear on the CER rotors. He changed front pads once and the rears were only about 50% worn at the end.

Mov'It now makes replacement rotors and pads for OEM Ferrari applications. These cost about the same as CCM rotors and pads, but the rotors last much, much longer.

Thanks!

Do you know if Mov'it's pads can be used on OEM rotors and if that would cure the fading?

tazandjan 01-19-2013 08:54 AM

Capo- Do you mean the original CCM rotors or the original steel rotors?

If CCM, you would have to ask Mov'It, but since the braking medium is the same on the two, I imagine it would. It takes a bit longer on the Mov'Its when they are new for braking pressure to go back to normal as the pads bed, so they appear to be tougher than the CCM pads.

They do make pads for the OEM application.

il Capolino 01-19-2013 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan (Post 231178)
Capo- Do you mean the original CCM rotors or the original steel rotors?

If CCM, you would have to ask Mov'It, but since the braking medium is the same on the two, I imagine it would. It takes a bit longer on the Mov'Its when they are new for braking pressure to go back to normal as the pads bed, so they appear to be tougher than the CCM pads.

They do make pads for the OEM application.

CCM rotors, affirmative.

That sounds very, very good indeed! Thanks! I'll let my dealer know first thing Monday. I'm not driving another season with stock pads knowing there's a solution available. I don't even mind the pads being a bit hard and perhaps squeaking under mellow braking like when cruising downtown. As long as they don't fade into nothingness when pushed! That's rather scary on a mountain road...

tazandjan 01-19-2013 09:27 AM

Capo- There is another solution. Racers have been using Pagid RS19 and RS29 (forget which is front and rear) pads on the CCMs with good results and much less rotor wear. The street pads are apparently pretty coarse to get good bite when cold. Result is rapid rotor wear. The Pagids have apparently been working fine on the street, too. Not sure if squealing is a problem or not, but there are threads here on using those pads.

Trev would know.

il Capolino 01-19-2013 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tazandjan (Post 231185)
Capo- There is another solution. Racers have been using Pagid RS19 and RS29 (forget which is front and rear) pads on the CCMs with good results and much less rotor wear. The street pads are apparently pretty coarse to get good bite when cold. Result is rapid rotor wear. The Pagids have apparently been working fine on the street, too. Not sure if squealing is a problem or not, but there are threads here on using those pads.

Trev would know.

Sounds great, I hope they carry them also for F430 and not only for Scuderia!

johan6504 01-19-2013 09:50 AM

On the scud: RS19 in front and RS29 at the rear, works great so far :-)

il Capolino 01-19-2013 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johan6504 (Post 231170)
I am using PAGID RS19 front and RS29 rear on my Scuderia. Has been woking fine for the last year. 5000 Km 5 trackdays all fine :-)

Oh, I just saw your post, sounds perfect!!

Hope they have pads for the F430 callipers as well.

johan6504 01-19-2013 09:52 AM

They have RS29/19 for the F430 as well. If I remember correctly you can get RS 29 both front and rear, that is what I would prefer.

il Capolino 01-19-2013 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johan6504 (Post 231192)
They have RS29/19 for the F430 as well. If I remember correctly you can get RS 29 both front and rear, that is what I would prefer.

What's the difference between RS19 and RS29?

johan6504 01-19-2013 09:55 AM

I am still a little confused about the difference between CCB and CCM...

CCB: Core of ceramic material reinforced with carbon fiber and by an additional ceramic layer on both the friction surfaces.

CCM: Carbon fiber in ceramic matrix.

Is the CCM solid or is there an extra ceramic layer on each side? I t sounds like the CCM is solid...

johan6504 01-19-2013 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by il Capolino (Post 231193)
What's the difference between RS19 and RS29?

RS 29 is newer, not much of a difference but it is supposed to have better initial bite... You can read more about the difference on PAGID web site.

il Capolino 01-19-2013 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johan6504 (Post 231195)
RS 29 is newer, not much of a difference but it is supposed to have better initial bite... You can read more about the difference on PAGID web site.

Stupendo, grazie mille!:thumbsup:

tazandjan 01-19-2013 11:19 AM

Johan- CCMs have a softer core with CSC bonded to the outside for a braking medium. At least for the 1st and 2nd generation brakes. When that thin layer of braking medium is shot, so are the rotors. Not sure what the Gen 3 brakes fitted to the GTO have for rotors. Have not seen enough tech data. Competition from Mov'It has forced Brembo to improve their products and lower their prices on the Gen 1 CCM parts. CCM brake equivalents are available for Corvettes and Porsches for about $10K. In the case of the Corvette Z06, that includes a whole bunch of other equipment, too.

Some Ferrari owners have actually used Corvette friction rings with Ferrari hats on their cars with good results. The fronts are 394 mm or so vs the Ferrrari Scud/16M's 398 mm, but that small difference apparently makes no difference. ZR1/Z06 optional brake rotors are available for $1200 each from online sellers. Not sure if the rear rotors are adaptable or not.

I would try the Pagid pads first. If you wear out your rotors, switch to Mov'Its and have the dealer reset the instrument panel chip to steel brakes so you get rid of all those silly warnings. Last rotor change you will ever make.

johan6504 01-19-2013 12:15 PM

Taz:

I thought changing the setting to steel in the instrument panel chip would also change the brake characteristics. What you are saying is that setting is only for the algorithm calculating the brake ware?

tazandjan 01-19-2013 01:51 PM

Johan- Affirmative, I believe that is all it does. Do not believe ABS or stability control (CST) is affected at all.


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