360 Questions regarding recent "Front to Rear" Diagnostic - Ferrari Life
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 01-03-2013, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
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Questions regarding recent "Front to Rear" Diagnostic

A Re-Post from my Member Intro thread......thought this would be better placed and answered here!

To Taz or anyone for that matter - couple of questions regarding some things.

My 360 is a 2000 model with 43k Miles at the time I purchased it. She had one real owner....for most of its life.....and knowing this person, it was well loved and actually driven...not a barn-baby. The second owner was someone I trust completely, but he did not drive it much and only had the car for less than a year. Sadly, the original owner is no longer alive - and every service book, tool bag, etc (meaning all factual history) was missing from the vehicle before it was sold to the owner before me. I have since gathered all of the missing pieces....tools/ books (Not the original to the car - but real actual factory books / tools / leather covers etc)......but that does not fill in all of the service gaps.

Prior to my purchase - I gathered as many recipts and details as I could...did a PPI etc...all in all - the deal I was able to make on the car outweighed the missing pieces.

Soooo.... A Local shop here (DBC Tuning LLC) in San Antonio....has been highly recommended by a few different F-Car/Exotic etcc... owners that I know as being very reputable in terms of work done / pricing / integrity etc..

Took my new baby to them a week ago to give me a full Diagnostic on what their thoughts were on what has actually been recently done per what I was told and given reciepts for when I made the purchase to the car in regards to maintenance, service etc all having been done in the prior 30 days to my purchase..

We put the car on the lift - took off all of the under-sheating - started at the nose and worked our way to the rear. From what I can tell - we pretty much covered every nut and bolt - good and bad. I was assured prior to purchase that the 30k Service was done in that same time frame....questions about that specifically to follow in post.

Here is the rundown of what was 100% for sure done in the 30 days prior to my purchase on 12/15/12....based on what I personally could see with my flashlight and head buried up the skirt of the lady...LOL

*New Drive Belts (Timing Not Included...more on that further down)
*All Fluids looked to have been replaced, along with all filters, inlcuding the air filters.
*Very Recent Hoses or Very-Good condition of hoses....including Cooling / AC / F1 etc

Things I question:

1. The Clutch. We took the bottom plate cover off - he showed me what to look for - tech said "he saw no glazing, chipping etc..overall the clutch plate looked to be in 65-75% life remaining condition...but that he was a little concerned that it seemed there may be a little oil seepage coming from somewhere...because it was along the wall of the inside of the clutch assembly housing." The side closest to the rear of the car. He did say that may be an issue - but that overall the clutch seemed to be in good shape. Is this something that should be alarming me?? Clutch and oil dont mix...

2. The Timing Belt. If I remember his words correctly...He said without taking it (the engine or the belt???) out of the car, it would be hard to know for a fact the timing belt was in new condition. Is this the case??? Is there a way to tell timing belt life on these without basically having to replace it anyway? If so - what kind of mileage and time should it have been changed, or should I change it now since I am not sure exactly if and when it was done??

3. Oil Seepage. I have heared from many people that all is well with a little oil seepage from certain spots on an F-Car....and the time to REALLY be concerned is when you see none at all on a Ferrari. Is this the case? And how much is too much??

4. The F1 System. Is there a simple (respectively) way to tell if my F1 System has had any upgrades, has problems, etc....if nothing from what I can tell is actually wrong with the system? Out of all the reading - I guess this seems to be the biggie in terms of "when it goes, its gone....and break out 15K for a new one" other than a broken timing belt ruining the engine. Is there any way to diognose early and repair before a replacement?

5. Drive Axle - Passenger side. CV Boots looked to be in good shape - no cracks or seeping from what I could tell. I may want to re-grease or replace the bearings because there is a faint sound coming from the driverd side rear wheel when Im going around a left-turning curve...but that's normal for any 12 year old car to possibly need. The scary Bit? He grabbed the axle shaft - and it could move back and forth (Meaning Toward the engine / and back to the side of the car) by an inch or so!! Surprisingly - once he saw the terror on my face - he didnt act THAT concerned. Basically saying "Dont use it for drag racing - and yes we gotta fix that pretty soon....but its not going to make your wheel fall off. Just be careful with it until we get you a new shaft in and replace it." Is this accurate? What could be the cause...and Should I be ok to drive with it like that?

Lastly - the thing that concerned me the most. In speaking about certain things that need to be done and when - I was told by this same tech that a full blown maintenance, including replacing timing belt and all seals/gaskets...NOT including the clutch - would require a full engine removal from the car, and would run me around 10K.

If all of that is true - and the full work that would be done is worth it - fine.....I can swing it....but something on my B-S Radar is going off....and I need some guidance from the F-Life club to help me understand a little better I guess. Like specifically why the engine is being removed....and specifically what exactly is going to be done....in detail!

All in all - love the car - and understood what I was getting into....but there is nothing wrong with getting some un-biased opinions and secondary answers I guess....so any input will be greatly appreciated
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post #2 of 17 Old 01-03-2013, 03:46 PM
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The engine does not need to be removed for a cambelt change on the 360. There is an access panel behind the seats. There is a difference between a "lock and swap" belt change, where the pulleys are locked so they cannot move and the belts are removed and replaced, and a belt change where the cams are degreed. The latter requires quite a bit more effort and is not always required, but it takes a real pro to make that judgement. Neither requires engine removal. It is nearly impossible to determine the condition of a cambelt with a visual inspection. If you have no records, it is probably a good idea to change them, since the recommended change interval is every three years.

Oil inside the clutch housing is not a good deal. Ferrari throw-out bearings are annular and have seals around the shaft that can leak. One of the pros may be able to tell you if there is normally a little seapage in there, but not an amateur like me.

F1 systems are fairly reliable if well maintained. With no records, I would want to change the F1 fluid and have the system bled with an SD2 or equivalent. The SD2 can also tell you if there are any faults in the F1 system. If the car runs and shifts well, she should be fine, especially with lots of life showing on the clutch. Get an expert opinion on the throw-out bearing seals. If you have to change the throw-out bearing, might as well go whole hog and put in a new clutch and new clutch position sensor while you are in there.

Oil seepage is one of those things only you and your tech can determine if there is a problem bad enough to fix. My cam seals are weeping, but they will be replaced with new cambelts this spring/summer. That means removing the cams and degreeing them when replacing the belts. Other than that, no leaks on my car.

The sound you are hearing going around a corner may be from the rear end limited slip . This is sometimes a problem on Ferraris and can sometimes be cured by adding a very small amount of limited slip additive. First thing I would do, though, would be to change the tranaxle fluid to a good synthetic 75W-90 and see if that cures the problem. Late Ferraris are notoriously rough on transaxle fluid because they are pump lubricated and our pros recommend changing it annually or, at the very least, every two years, as recommended in the maintenance schedule. Again, you need pro advice on the half shafts and whether there is a problem. Have R&Rd a bunch of Corvette half axles, but never one on a Ferrari.

It sounds to me like you need a new tech and shop if he wants to pull the engine. What I would do is change all the fluids and filters, have the belts replaced, and let someone who knows what he is doing handle the job. Same for advice on the clutch

Hopefully one of the pros like Brian or Josh can chime in on this, but a belt change and full fluid and filter change on a 360 should be way, way less than $10K, probably less than $5K.

Taz
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post #3 of 17 Old 01-03-2013, 04:51 PM
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Perhaps the tech was thinking there are gasket/seal leaks in the engine? If so, that might be why he states an engine-out service is needed. And that probably would be around 10K. Although I'd wonder why you'd take the engine out and not replace the clutch at the same time? Sounds like he's guessing as much as I am....

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post #4 of 17 Old 01-03-2013, 08:29 PM
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David- Could be.

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post #5 of 17 Old 01-04-2013, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
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Going to go by there this weekend to have a refresher on what he told me....arming myself with a little more info so that I can ask the right questions.

All in all - what should I look for in cost comp's for replacing the Cam Belt, Half Shaft, and New Brake rotors (steel not ceramic)? Rotors are ok....but I want to make this car as new as mechanically/maintenance possible over the next 6 months.

And being that it is a 2000 model....other than the obvious fluids / other belts / clutch that I already know are in good shape...what should I have done?

Here is my list so far that I feel I should probably do:

Cam Belt
Rotors/Pads
Half Shaft(s)
Suspension Components-(Shock/Struts)....Should I even mess with this if there seems to be no issues - Normal Cost?
Full F1 System Diagnostic

Thanks again to everyone for the continued info!

C.B.
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post #6 of 17 Old 01-04-2013, 09:24 AM
 
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Just did a full motor out rebuild on mine with similar miles. Things start to add up quickly when you are in there but the "well while we are in there we might as well...." always seems to win in the long run. Do it once and do it right. Also, if your mechanic is compitent make sure that the variators have been done. Mine were never done and the car runs significantly better now than before. Lots of good info on here and good people so keep asking questions even if they seem silly. Best of luck,

A
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post #7 of 17 Old 01-04-2013, 09:40 AM
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You can't see the surface of the clutch plate from below, so there is no way of checking if is glazed. All you can do is guage the approximate compressed thickness. If there is oil evident it could be either from the bearing seals or the gearbox nosecone seal. Gearbox oil smells like cats urine so it's quite easy to diagnose the source! As for cambelts, if it's an unknown quantity then budget for replacement. They are a service item, and as mentioned no engine removal is required. A good check of the f1 parameters should show issues, look for the PIS setting, clutch wear and clutch overheat time. If possible, post the results for some feedback....
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post #8 of 17 Old 01-04-2013, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew360 View Post
Just did a full motor out rebuild on mine with similar miles. Things start to add up quickly when you are in there but the "well while we are in there we might as well...." always seems to win in the long run. Do it once and do it right. Also, if your mechanic is compitent make sure that the variators have been done. Mine were never done and the car runs significantly better now than before. Lots of good info on here and good people so keep asking questions even if they seem silly. Best of luck,

A

What was your "round-about" total all said and done with your motor-out work if you dont mind me asking? Feel free to message me if you dont want to pub,ically post specifics... Thanks!
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post #9 of 17 Old 01-04-2013, 10:07 AM
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anyone that recommends pulling the engine without doing the clutch I would run away from.

Belts I would do just to be safe.

I don't understand why you want to do the brake rotors since you mention they are ok. Just do the pads if they need replacing.

I can't say about the play in the rear axle shaft, seems excessive but I don't know.

Suspension will cost your about $8k with OEM stuff and about $3k with Hill Engr. parts, that is doing both upper and lower arms and shock bushings all around and of course new alignment. I would not do it unless you really need it but I have to say it made my car like a brand new car. The lowers take quite a beating and usually need replacing before the uppers.

From what you said, the tech/shop does not have a SD2 computer, I would be concerned about taking my car to any shop that did not have the SD2. Even for work that does not need a SD2 I would still be concerned as to me it implies they are not serious about working on these cars and as a result don't work on them regularly.

Engine absolutely stays IN the car for all the work mentioned so far.
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post #10 of 17 Old 01-04-2013, 10:34 AM
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You cannnot change an F1 clutch and reset it, bleed the F1 lines (can be done, but very time consuming), or check the F1 system without an SD2 or equivalent.

Check the thickness of the rotors and if they can still be turned, I would do that instead of replacing.

Taz
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post #11 of 17 Old 01-05-2013, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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Ok.....I think I am just going to go to our local Ferrari dealer here in San Antonio. Barrett Motorcars....

At least I know they have the proper diog tools and and actual Factory techs.....show them my list of concerns and questions - and get the full story on what should be done.

Nothing wrong with a Second opinion anyway.

Thankfully - the car really does drive like a dream...but I am thinking that even if the timing belt was replaced, it was the lock and swap...not the full belt/timing job. It does seem to maybe idle a little off - when comparing the sound and how it drives to other high-end engine cars I have had which needed timing adjustments.

Until I get that done at the very least - and the shaft issue resolved - and I know it has been for a fact....im just not going to feel comfortable actually letting the reins loose on her.

As always - thanks for the wealth of knowledge here....and I of course will keep you guys updated with what I find and what I have done.

C.B.
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post #12 of 17 Old 01-05-2013, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quick and minor update - but a huge weight off my shoulders so far....talked in length over the phone with local Ferrari dealer that has serviced the car for the past Year. The F1 Pump failed in Jan 2012....and was replaced by them to the tune of almost 8k.

When the Pump goes and is replaced....what else would a Ferrari Dealer replace along with it in terms of the overall system???

No record of timing belt in their history, however............

SO...... me thinks I will be setting a Doctor Visit for next week to go ahead and get that done.

Will provide more updates next week!

C.B.
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post #13 of 17 Old 01-05-2013, 12:31 PM
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C, if the cost was about 8k$, the entire F1 hydraulic actuator system has been changed, not just the hydraulic pump motor. You should be fine for a very long time now
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post #14 of 17 Old 01-05-2013, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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C, if the cost was about 8k$, the entire F1 hydraulic actuator system has been changed, not just the hydraulic pump motor. You should be fine for a very long time now

Even better! I will be getting a specific and detailed list from them on Monday, but also have an appointment set for Wednesday to spend a couple of hours with the tech - going over the car front to back like I did with the other guys.

It was funny - the lady I was talking to said "you sound awfully happy now!". I told her..." I would say you have no idea how much, but since you work there - you know exactly how much!"
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post #15 of 17 Old 01-07-2013, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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My list of questions for 360 "Doctor Visit" on Wed:

Ok guys and gals - here is the list I have made for my 360's "Doctor Visit" on Wed in the early am...basically the rundown of questions I want them to answer and info I want to know.

Considering I use mine as a DD - 30 Miles Highway one way, with one stop light and no traffic to and from, 5 days a week....its pretty important I know she is up to the task.

Let me know if I should add anything, as well as any other questions I should ask....

Also - please post (if you want) the cost you may have paid to have any of the following done - so I can use that to compare to what I am quoted....

1. Clutch / F1 System
a: Specific Wear / Life Left of Clutch
b: If in operational limits - PIS Adjust / Relearn (Eventually Replacement) of TCU to rectify "Jumpy" problem in 1st and will this solve the "Pop to Neutral when upshifting to 3rd/up paddle automatically to 5th or 6th" issue I had? (This only occured on last Sunday - after having driven the car for a couple of hours - mostly highway/but a little stop and go traffic)

Yes I have read that the most likely cause of this is either 1: My clutch is almost gone or 2: My PIS / TCU needs a little calibration. Hopefully the initial PPI I did was accurate regarding Clutch life - and that it is the latter which needs to be done!

c: When F1 Pump was replaced in Jan 2012 - what EXACTLY was done....just the pump, or pump and actuators / relays / etc?

2. Timing/Cam Belt
a: Was it recently done? If not - cost for replacement and cams degreed?
If so - were the cams degreed or can they tell?
b: If it was replaced by just a "Lock and Swap"...cost of having the Cams Degreed without belt replacement - or should it be replaced again anyway?

3. Hubs/Brakes
a: Rotor Condition - Pad Condition?
b: Minimum limits of rotor thickness to be able to turn them rather than replace? Cost?
c: Minor Squeeling coming from Driver side rear wheel when at low speed/under breaking...goes away at highway speeds(or is at least un-noticable)....is this "Brake" related - or do I need CV Joint/Axle Shaft/Bearings Greased or Replaced etc? Cost of any of above?

4. Axle Shaft / Suspension
a: Passenger Side Rear axle shaft moved right to left under initial Post Purchase Inspection...why would it do this, is it a problem....and how do we fix if so?
b: Condition of Suspension Components / Ball Joints etc....what is ok now, what needs to be replaced soon?

ALL IN ALL - my main question will be what has to be done right now....and what can be spaced out over the next 12 months....so that by Jan 2014....she is as mechanically-new as possible?

Thanks again guys!
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post #16 of 17 Old 01-07-2013, 03:52 PM
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CB- You have to remove the timing belts to degree the cams, so do not ask that question. Any time the belts are removed, they should be replaced. To degree the cams, a degree wheel is attached to the crankshaft, top dead center is determined, and cam timing is checked against true TDC.

Taz
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post #17 of 17 Old 01-07-2013, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazandjan View Post
CB- You have to remove the timing belts to degree the cams, so do not ask that question. Any time the belts are removed, they should be replaced. To degree the cams, a degree wheel is attached to the crankshaft, top dead center is determined, and cam timing is checked against true TDC.
Fair enough....always like tips when they involve me not sounding stupid.
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